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Old 07-01-2007, 03:54 AM   #61 (permalink)
Katczinsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post
Sometimes when you post something like you've just posted here, I wonder if you're not thinking? or just being argumentive?

What is an American? It's someone who loves freedom. It's someone who loves the Constitution and all that's written there. It's someone who wants truly to live free and appreciates, i.e., doesn't abuse the privilege. Not someone who wants to come to change everything to the deplorable conditions they just left, or freeload.

Saying that we (Anglo Saxons) would have to be the ones assimilating is just plain, I'm sorry, stupid. You and I and everyone else knows this country will never be handed back to the Indians. That is a stupid argument. It takes us nowhere.

Actually, if one believes the Manifest Destiny, this country is the land of milk and honey that God promised Abraham's descendants. And it wasn't intended for everyone and their dog to come here. Now I know you certainly don't want to hear that argument, and neither do I want to argue it. We can take it up another time. But right now, I have to make sure our borders are secure and that takes a lot of time and dedication.
Interesting. I wonder if you truly understand the capacity of the word assimilate. Assimilation is the process whereby a member of one ethnocultural group is 'absorbed' into another whereby many characteristics of the individual's former culture are erased to meet the expectations of the majority. The point I was trying to convey was that there is not one ethnic or cultural group which would primarily have the rightful designation of "American" unless of course you are talking about the Native Americans. Especially considering we are a nation of immigrants from around the world.

Something you perhaps do not understand is that "American" is a nationality and not a concept, ideology, or race (except in the context of Native Americans). There are concepts within our country that can be considered unique to America, but not to render "American" as an ideology itself. If you wish to assimilate people into an ideology, then that my friend is not uniquely American.

To be an American could also mean having U.S. citizenship and at the same time preaching against the U.S. Constitution. As such an individual's rights would be guaranteed (ironically, by the document the individual is criticizing). Likewise, to establish the obvious original owners and culture of this land that was nearly wiped out by the Anglo-Saxons would also be protected under the "American" system. So I was really attempting to point out the ridiculousness of your calls to "assimilation into American" which really can't be expressed in concrete and non-abstract terms. And I was also pointing out that there isn't any 'assimilation' (in the word's true capacity) needed to be done by the immigrants.


Quote:
The consequences should have been considered before they embarked to the "land of the free". Believe it or not, sometimes consequences are unpleasant.
And sometimes consequences are beset upon a people who have little to no other choice in their actions. People are sometimes forced into the United States because of their extremely impoverished conditions and simply wish to seek a better life for their families; sometimes as a matter of life and death. Common sense would tell anyone in such a position that the potential consequences for crossing the border are much more favorable than poverty and starvation. Children of illegals born in the United States have no say over their position in the United States, and yet their parents could be taken away from them.

I thought family values and keeping the family in tact were supposed to be a virtue, not a vice. But I guess it's not immoral if it happens to a Mexican family.

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Isn't that like rewarding bad behavior? "Sorry we caught you breaking into the bank, but here's a $1000 (or a million) for your trouble."
I don't see how decent people attempting to provide food and clothing to their families is bad behavior. And crossing a border is barely as equally morally wrong or as reprehensible as stealing from a bank.

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The ones living here should be deported. PERIOD! THEN if they want to come back, they can try entering LEGALLY.
I wish it were that easy. I really do. However, people holding such a sentiment are not realistic at all. What exactly do you propose? The deportation of tens of millions of people? Are you aware that there hasn't been a relocation of a group of people so big as that in all of human history? The next closest thing would be Nazi Germany's holocaust. Such an undertaking would require manpower and resources of immeasurable proportions; things we simply do not have nor could ever muster.

And even if you do manage to be able to hunt down, control, and relocate the tens of millions of people, there is very little to stop them from simply going back across the border.

It simply isn't realistic.

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The "anchor baby" fallacy was perpetrated by lazy officials that didn't want to undertake the difficult part of their job. "A lie told often enough becomes the truth." Vladimir Lenin
And what difficult job would that be? Separating families? Or unconstitutionally abducting and relocating U.S. citizens without their or their parents' consent?

Quote:
The 14th amendment does not say that anyone born on this soil is an automatic citizen. It was written the way it was to give the newly-freed slaves citizenship as they had not previously been considered human much less citizens. A baby born in the United States to parents that are illegal, is also illegal (not a citizen). Yes, it's sad that children born on U.S. soil, grew up here would have to leave. But you know what? Children whose fathers screw around on their mothers also have it bad. That's what happens when parents break the law. There are painful consequences for innocent parties. That's life!
Well, no matter your delusions about U.S. citizenship and naturalization laws, or your own interpretations of the Constitution, current U.S. law says otherwise. Anyone born in the United States is automatically a U.S. citizen.

Arguments for illegal status and complete deportation and separation of families may be clever arguments, but I highly doubt they will achieve the ends you wish; nor do I think they are realistic.
"If you want to achieve peace of mind and happiness, then have faith; if you want to be a disciple of truth, then search" -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Economic Left/Right: -9.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.72

Last edited by Katczinsky; 07-01-2007 at 03:57 AM.
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