Thread: Origin of God
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:16 PM   #48 (permalink)
Katczinsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa View Post
There is one big difference between myself and an athiest; and that is an athiest denies the possibility of a deity existing. I do not (though I find it unlikely).

Webster's:
athe·ist
one who believes that there is no deity

I don't believe there is any way of knowing that there is no deity and therefore this information is just as false as claiming that there is a God.
I've said this before, but the problem with consulting popular online dictionaries is that it will give you the multiple definitions in the context of popular vernacular instead of their true root meanings. Because, as you conveniently left out, nearly every dictionary also says atheism merely can be defined as "a lack of belief in God"; which is it's root meaning.

I believe there is a difference between anti-God (as a negative assertion God does not exist) and A-theist that you are not discerning. A-theist just means you are without the theory of god existing (or, 'theism').

Buddhists are atheists, secular humanists are atheists, agnostics are atheists. Etc. But they're not necessarily anti-god or positing there is no god.

Quote:
ag·nos·tic
a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

I am a non-theist, that is for sure. I am NOT an atheist.
Again, to reiterate my point above about popular online dictionaries.

As sear most accurately points out, agnosticism merely addresses what we know or do not know (hence a-gnosticism; "without knowledge"); and without definitive knowledge, we are all agnostics in theory.

I can be both agnostic and atheist. Or, I don't know so I am agnostic, but I also don't believe so I am atheist. To believe is to wish for something to be true. I could believe in God and hence be a theist, while at the same time not know God exists and hence be an agnostic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos
I don't believe in theism but neither do I completely discount the possibility that there is a god or gods.
Same here. But I don't actively believe or assert the theory of theism; therefore I am a-theist.

Quote:
I am not ashamed of this and I don't see how you got the impression that I am.
You told me calling you atheist (because you don't believe in theism) was offensive. This implies shame of being an atheist.

Like I said, it would be the equivalent of a Christian expressing shame for calling themselves "Christian" simply because they don't personally associate with the fundamentalist evangelist Christian movement.

Quote:
I believe that I don't know, you don't know and the Pope and Billy Graham don't know. That is what I believe and I wear the label Agnostic proudly.
I know I don't know for sure. Anyone honest enough will say that. I am agnostic in that sense also. But I also don't believe, so I am also atheist. (These terms are dealing with two completely different themes [believe- theism/atheism and knowledge [gnosticism/agnosticism]); and I think that's a difference that many people need to understand.

Quote:
You seem to be under the impression that Agnostic is somehow less offensive than Atheist to Theists. Let me assure you that, after 30+ years of Agnosticism, I have not found this to be the case.
Not necessarily, but from what I've experienced, and from what I've seen and read about; atheists generally get the most heat from the religious community in terms of discrimination. But when you're discerning discrimination of atheists vs. agnostics, it gets really fuzzy because most censuses rightfully recognize and include 'agnostics' in the category of "atheists".

But from my experience, interestingly enough, I've gotten a lot more heat from people proclaiming themselves as "agnostics" than religious people. There tends to be the real religious zealot, but usually religious people around here tend to be a lot more tolerant than the group of people calling themselves 'agnostics'. I think I'm seeing this playing out once more even on this board. Considering agnostics and atheists have a lot more in common as opposed to atheists and theists (considering atheists are agnostics and very often vice versa), I have no idea why this phenomena happens.

Quote:
And, yes, Atheism is a positive, at least as it is used in the popular vernacular.
Not really. Usually the only time I find people confused about the true definition of the word atheist (or simply 'without theism') is with the people calling themselves 'agnostics'. Usually when I say I'm atheist to a Christian or someone, they say something to the effect of "Oh, so that means you just don't believe in God, right?". Which is correct.

If they really want to know if I'm "strong atheist" or not, I could explain it to them. In other words, every time someone says they're Christian, I don't assume that they're fundamentalists. So I don't see why you should assume automatically that atheists are "strong atheists".

Like I said, think of theism as a hair color. It posits hair, and a color of hair. Atheism is just without the hair; so in this case, an atheist would be bald. Saying atheism is a positive is like saying bald is a hair color.

Quote:
I think that your insistance on the idea that shame somehow plays into this serves to illustrate why insisting that Agnostics are really Atheists is offensive. The implication is that somehow we are less sure of ourselves and/or unwilling to stand up for what we do believe.
Not really, I explained myself above.

Quote:
Nothing could be further than the truth. We not only have to stand in the face of theists but we are also regularly assaulted from the other side.
Hmmm, well like I said; I generally get a lot more hostility from agnostics than theists. Perhaps it stems from the mindset that both "theism" and "atheism" equates lying dishonest fundamentalist wacko. When such a black-and-white broad stroke couldn't be further from the truth.

Quote:
Yes, I wish to disassociate myself from Atheists. Just as a religious Jew or a Christian does not identify himself as a follower of the Judeo Christian Religion but as Jewish or Christian. That is to say, yes we have a commonality of beliefs, but it goes this far and no further.
No, your disassociating from atheism would be equivalent to a Christian denying that he/she is a Christian but instead a "protestant"; as if protestantism wasn't Christian? Well, agnosticism is (or, can be) a form of atheism; being that, an agnostic (in your context) does not believe in god.
"If you want to achieve peace of mind and happiness, then have faith; if you want to be a disciple of truth, then search" -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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