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Originally Posted by ccvasquez Ah yes, the "you are not perfect therefore you are just as bad as they are" argument.
I am sorry but that does not wash in the real world.
Both sides have killed innocent civilians - yes, but our side does not target them nor does it hide among them. In fact our side goes to great pains to avoid causing any harm to them.
That alone should enable even the most uninformed observer to distinguish which side is morally superior (strategic interests or not). | You seem to have a very narrow perspective.
Perhaps you hold the definitions of 'terrorist' and 'Islamic Fundamentalist' interchangeably but in their truer definitions, many actions of the west, or mostly what the west sponsors, becomes cognitively indiscernible from terrorism.
The holding of this distinction is I bet where we diverge in our understandings.
I never said the west is exactly as morally incorrect in it's tactics when superimposed over the tactics of Islamic extremists. Of course, dropping a bomb on a village and blaming it on error or 'inevitable collateral damage' isn't quite as morally incorrect as literally holding someone hostage? Both, including the latter (terrorism), are tactics and not ideologies. The sooner you realize this the sooner you will begin to understand the reality of things.
Both sides hold the ideology that it is okay to use militarism, violence, and fear in order to consolidate power and control. What I mean by 'we have lost the moral high ground' is that, now as a force of imperialism, in most people's minds opposition to this imperialism is morally justified. And in certain extreme circumstances, many people in their conditions find it not only an acceptable tactic but necessary to use terrorism to achieve this end. Hence why terrorism has grown since Bush's declaration of the war against terror. Quote:
As far as the "imposing democracy on others" argument. I think this is rather like imposing prosperity or security or freedom. It is hardly an imposition when the majority of the people desire these things. And we are going to facilitate their having them.
Please do not even try to say that the Iraqi people preferred life under Sadam Hussein. That would only serve to expose you as not being serious.
| The people of Iraq have voiced their vast majority of an opinion numerous times that has been unfavorable to us. For example, even outdated polls suggest a large majority of Iraqis favor immediate US withdraw ( Washington Post), and recently that consensus among Iraqis has been growing stronger to a point where 78% of Iraqis oppose the presence of coalition forces (and most of that figure find themselves in the "strongly opposed" category), and now a majority (51%) believe that attacks on coalition forces are "acceptable" ( BBC).
Most Iraqis generally would enjoy a freedom of intellect but freedom is definitely not what most Iraqis are getting. Many Iraqis face even more persecution for ideas and/or associations than before (see BBC poll above). And generally, many Iraqis favor the security of Saddam's Iraq over any gain in freedom with the coming of the occupation. One cannot live free in a state torn by war, without running water, electricity, or food. And one cannot live free from threat of being persecuted by either US forces (random midnight sweepings and detainments [of not only men but women and children] as well as the threat of torture), or from various other forces such as radical organizations or death squads (the latter of which is mostly comprised of a very corrupt police force). "If you want to achieve peace of mind and happiness, then have faith; if you want to be a disciple of truth, then search" -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Economic Left/Right: -9.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.72
Last edited by Katczinsky; 08-20-2007 at 03:40 PM.
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