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Old 03-14-2008, 10:34 PM   #61 (permalink)
Katczinsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadgetory View Post
And I have said that some her supporters support her because she is a woman..she has said some of her supporters support her because she is a woman ..she has also said that she'd not be in the position she is in as a woman without already being a household name. So I never denied it..

what I did say is we need to stop pretending that people are not supporting Obama because of his race. And if he really wants to open conversations with people perhaps he could start with his fellow countryman and stop calling everyone a racist who mentions or says something about his race or race generally. Its a cop out position, its a throw away easy target, that is really hard to rebutt given the fact the media isn't inerested in news but in the most sensational headline they can think of. Anyone that isn't one of his supporters that mention his race gets painted racist which not only makes his lets not be divisive stance rubbish but pisses people off.
I do not deny that there are people who vote for Obama because of his race. What I reject is the notion that his campaign relies on his race; at least to the degree that Clinton's campaign relies on her sex.

You frequently complain about Obama calling people 'racist'; I'm curious as to at least one example of such a cop-out.

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I never said he wasn't appealing to people, I never said he wasn't a good politician and good public speaker, which is something we have been missing these past 7 years. What I did say is calling everyone a racist who happens to think like Ferraro or who mention his race a racist is divisive and dis-enfranchises people. Some of these people are democrats and will vote democrat no matter who is the candidate but some fo them are going to resent it and vote for McCain (who is going to be the GOP candidate unless they decide for some weird reason not to give him the nod at the Convention). These are the people I am concerned about. Also Hilary has won every single swing state..lets just pretend the status quo will stay and look at swing states, she is more appealing to people in swing States. Hilary has bought out people to vote in primaries who normally do not as well. Why even pretend she hasn't, she isn;t that far behind.
One thing I have to hand to Hillary was her ability to dupe voters in my home state of Ohio into believing her lies on NAFTA. The primary voting bloc in Ohio are white women, including a lot of old white women. But aside from that a lot of labor Democrats for some odd reason supported Clinton after Edwards dropped out. Maybe it has to do something with the complete BS story of Obama going to the Canadian government and informing that his stances on NAFTA were just temporary campaign rhetoric. We know now from higher sources in the Canadian government that in actuality it was the Clinton campaign that went to the Canadian government

The Clinton's were the ones that originally pushed NAFTA, and Hillary consistently voted to retain NAFTA provisions. So, I do have to hand it to her and her husband their skills in dirty politics.

But I think the point is, is that people want to get away from the same-old dirty politics, multi-personalities, and straight-out lies. This is why Obama is attractive.

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I believe what Obama has done is a great fantastic given our country but I also think what Hilary has done is also one. I am suprprised at the amount of people who in an effort to not sound racist sound like sexist pigs. But he is going to get his butt kicked because his kumbahyah lets teach the world to sing in harmony style only appeals to a certain and limited amount of people, other people think he is a pretentious idealist (as opposed to realist) and or isn't going to win they'd be the people voting for Hilary and McCain because anyone can vote in the Dems primary even a registered member of the GOP.
I consider myself a realist; and I believe someone has to be a naive idealist to the fullest capacity of that word's meaning to believe that electing Clinton would bring change to Washington. A realist knows that Hillary Clinton is one of the most 'involved' among Washington Democrats with big business and special interests.

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All experience means in DC is being able to come back with a really good sound bite..McCain is great at them..Obama sort of sucks (racist and we can do it) and Hilary is somewhere in between she is pretty hit and miss.
Actually, when Obama actually chooses to defend himself, his comebacks are a lot more witty and hard-hitting than Clinton's. One major problem I have with Obama's campaign is that they frequently confuse valid and truthful defense with dirty politics. Some of the lowest of the lowest bullshit is coming from the Clinton campaign (the emails about him being a Muslim, his going to the Canadian government about NAFTA, Obama 'acting like Kenn Star', etc.), and Obama's campaign needs to do a lot more to come back.

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Obama said about Lincoln Lets not pretend he was the great emancipator.....not that I ever pretended he was but talk about undermine what was a pretty amazing achievement for its time. Give Lincoln his dues.
I like to think that if Lincoln was the best we could do, then we have pretty low standards. It's my contention that Obama would break these standards pretty easily.

Lincoln would have done anything to retain the union, even if it meant enslaving freedmen in the North. He frequently expressed those feelings himself. Whether Lincoln was actually not racist and was genuinely interested in equal rights for racial minorities is unclear and should be left up to historians to debate. All I know is that he could have done a lot more; at least to the equivalent standard of the 'Radical Republicans'.

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If he is the Dems candidate he has to stop calling people racists everytime they mention he happens to be black or has a question about it and talk with them or else his whole campaign is way to easily painted as a load of horse crap. McCain is going to go hey Mr lets talk to our enemies you can't even have a dialogue with your own countryman how the hell are you going to get people who don't want to talk to us to talk when you can't even talk to your own countryman. Obama isn't wooing independent voters he is attractive to people who watched to much Star Trek and believe the Prime Directive and African Americans. I have Black friends who voted for him because he is black, they think he speaks a shit load of crap but he is black and so voted for him.
Again, how can he stop that which he doesn't actually do? I personally haven't seen him call anyone racist because they bring up valid questions about race relations.

But you cannot deny that the bullshit about Obama being a Muslim (many of those email strings were released from the Clinton campaign), is racist. You cannot deny that defining Obama's campaign on the basis of his race does fall under the category of racism. If the claim that Obama's race is the only factor in his success was backed with the concurring evidence then it would be a genuine point; but saying such things on conjecture and bias when they go contrary to the evidence is closely related to racism.

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Interesting you should mention JFK..he had an affair and got us into Vietnam. The good thing about Hilary is there is no dirt everyone knows everything about her because her husband did weird things with cigars and the GOP went after him for it...
Having an affair is barely what I would consider the mark of a bad President. I think 'him getting us into Vietnam' is misleading but does express a limited amount of truth. Vietnam was mostly LBJ's doing. Whether or not it would have escalated to the extent that LBJ caused had JFK not been assassinated is unclear.
"If you want to achieve peace of mind and happiness, then have faith; if you want to be a disciple of truth, then search" -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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