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Old 11-02-2005, 05:45 AM   #68 (permalink)
sgtdmski
The Man You Love to Hate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
First, this is a bad comparison. Facism is quite the opposite of socialism. Under Facism, the social rights of individuals, such as freedom of religion and speech, are stripped while corporations engage in an effectively free market with regulations put in only as necessarily to benefit the state. Facism is indeed the culmination of putting the interests of the state above the interests of the individual people.
Actually, this was quite a good comparison of the two systems, and rather quite accurate. Both systems seek the same goal, the redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor, based on a system of "progressive" taxes. Fascism arose in the minds of scholars to replace socialism due to its inherrent flaw of class warfare. Fascism sought to eliminate the warfare between the classes and have harmony where everyone was equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
But I must argue that the morality of socialism and communism is far more moral than the morality of capitalism. It may be true that socialism is born from envy......

Socialism and Communism try to give everyone as much as the next one, and that is the culmination of morality. No person will be left behind.
But what is moral? The only thing for me that comes to mind is that which is rationale. In order for humans to survive they must the weapon in which they were created with. Unlike the jaguar we do not have speed and claws. Nor like the lion we do not have the claws and massive jaws. No our weapon is our mind and our ability to use it. Our basic instinct is that of life and survival. That which benefits our life and survival is that which is good and moral. That which hurts or hampers or life and survial is evil and immoral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxian
shouldn't it be considered whether that person actually deserves more than he does?
No it should not. If one achieves who is to determine whether he deserves it more. For instance, I am single and I work with a co-worker who is married. One could argue that because my co-worker is married he deserves more time off so he can spend it with his wife. Since we both work 40 hours per week, would it not be fair to make me the single man work 50 hours and the married man work only 30. Since he deserves to spend more time with his family that would be only fair. And since he is married and has someone else to care for, couldn't it also be said that he deserves to make at least as much money as me the single man for working less time??? Or for that matter, shouldn't he make more? Why should I the single man work harder for another man's wife??? What benefit do I gain? I do not go home and have a meal cooked by her for me, I do not go home and have sex with her. So why should I work for her??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
I mean, really thinking about it, why should we allow one person to be rich and one person to be poor?
Simply because we are not all equal. Not matter how much people would like to differ on this belief the simple fact is that when I enter a room there will always be someone who is taller or shorter than me, someone who is smarter or dumber than me, someone who is stronger or weaker than me or someone who is prettier or uglier than me. The only equality that I enjoy with these people is that which is provided for under the law, and the fact that in God's eyes we are all equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
Doesn't every person deserve to have a good life?
Once again no. All one deserves is to be treated with respect and equal to his fellow man based on his performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
Doesn't every person deserve to not have to work hard?
Once again the answer is no. One should work as hard as one must to accomplish that in life which he/she wants. Again we are not all equal some of us must work harder than others to achieve, but those of us who achieve should not be punished because others do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
Doesn't every person deserve to have a job he loves?
No one deserves anything that he/she cannot earn. Desire or deserving has nothing to do with ability. I love the game of football, however, I couldn't catch a pass from a quarterback to save my life. Since I love this sport don't I deserve a spot on a team as a wide receiver. No, I don't and we all know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
Doesn't the hard-working laborer deserve as much money as the hard-working CEO?
No, despite the philosophy of Karl Marx it is not labor that brings value to a product but rather the demand of the consumer that does. It is the CEO who charts the course for a company, detailing what products to produce, where to produce them, and how to get them to market. Often times it is the CEOs idea the laborer work produces. The product which makes the consumer's life easier or better is not the result of the work of the laborer, but rather the result of the work of the mind of the CEO. The laborer only builds, he/she does not create or develop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
These things are not part of Socialism. They are the result of corrupt and desperate governments doing stupid things. They have nothing to do with Socialism.
Conflict and struggle have everything to do with socialism. Socialism is based on the ideal that history is about revolutions and struggles. Karl Marx belief was the worker would rise up and revolt against the owners. It was not corrupt government that led to a corrupt system but rather the flawed belief in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
This is the American ideal; the fantasy that gets people to love capitalism and to ignore its shortcomings. But this fantasy is nothing more than a fantasy. Let us consider these values:

The truth is that the honest people usually end up at the bottom. Some industrious people make it big, and some don't, and some non-industrious people are born into wealth. Some thoughtful people end up on top, others end up failing at changing their ideas into a successful business and going bankrupt. It's true that those who make it to the top must be prudent, frugal, responsible, disciplined, and efficient, but a whole lot of people at the bottom hold those traits. You see, if people at the bottom hold this set of traits, then it can't be this set of traits which elevates people to the top.

Let me propose some of the real traits that bring people to the top in Capitalism. First and foremost is greed. In order to rise in capitalism you've got to love money; you've got to want loads of it all for yourself. If you don't have that, then it doesn't matter how responsible or prudent you are, you just aren't going to have the motivation to work for that money.
How jaded your view of capitalism is. Capitalism is about greed, but rather profit. There is a difference between the two. You talk about the love of money so lets start here. What is money???? Money is a measure that we use to pay one for their products or their services. Money is only an tool that we use to reward those who use their mind to produce or serve us the consumer with the products what we want or desire. Why shouldn't we love money, it represents man's use of his only weapon, his mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
Next is starting wealth. Not everyone who rises to the top began wealthy, but the vast majority of people who are wealthy today were wealthy when they were born, and the vast majority of people who are poor today were poor when they were born. It is very difficult for someone with little money to start a business.
One does not need much money to start a successful venture, i.e Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. One needs an idea that one believes in, and one that he/she can convince others to believe in as well. Many of the most successful businessmen started with little more than an idea and the desire to see it through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
Perhaps another common trait is the willingness to put your success above morality. Does every person face the decision that will cost them either their success or their morality? Perhaps not, but many do, and those who choose success are those who succeed.
Here again is another jaded view. The market is not a zxero-sum game. Someone does not have to fail for someone else to succeed. Success is not gained over one's morality. Adam Smith was right, there is an "invisible hand" that benefits all mankind thanks to the ideas and productions of the men of mind. Are we not better off in life thanks to Edison, Ford, Carnegie, Rockefellar, Gates, and many others, who scarificed their own fortunes and reputations to bring to market the many different prodcuts that they devised. If basing morality is dependent upon who has served his fellow man better then hands down these men fall into that category far more than the likes of Marx or Lenin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
And what are these values that RWE listed? Are they the values of good people? When did a good person become a person who worked the hardest or made the most money? That's a capitalist idea. What happened to a good person being the person who helps someone else even though it brings himself suffering or costs his own success?
No man should live his life for the benefit of others unless it is done so through free choice. There is nothing noble about sacrificing one's self for the benefit of others unless it is done so through free will. When I was a soldier I placed my life on the line for the benefit of this country and my fellow soldiers not out of morality but rather out of choice. I knew the costs and I was willing to pay the price. But no man should be forced to pay a cost that he does not want to pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
What happened to a good person being someone who is kind and generous? In capitalism, those are the people who get nowhere. Capitalism breeds immorality, the love of money and oneself over the love of others.

Capitalism is one of the few systems that actually punishes morality. Morality is not making a lot of money for yourself; that is greed. Morality is helping other people instead of yourself. And that holds true no matter your profession.
A good person is still someone who is kind and generous. But is it moral for one to make sure that other men in society eat before he does, or have shelter before he does??? There is nothing wrong with help one's fellow man, but one should not help them at the expense of one's self.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
Every system has incentives to shirk responsibility. People don't want to do work. Why would they? Work sucks. Socialism and Communism don't create that incentive, the nature of work creates that incentive. What you really mean to say is that Capitalism is the only system that creates incentive to do work whether you like it or not. And that is why Capitalism is successful.
"From each according to his ability to each according to his needs." That is the basic premise of socialism. The Pilgrims experimented with socialism when they came to this country and they found that the young and able were unwilling to work hard for everyone in the community. Why should they if they are not going to be rewarded for their work. In socialism there is not reward for merit but only for need. Once again my argument from earlier still applies, that which is moral is that which benefits. Capitalism is successful because it does reward those who work hard. It is successful because it benefits the men of mind.

Our system of capitalism is flawed because it is not a truly free market system. Government regulations and intervention prohibit the markets from truly being free. The beauty of the free market system is that it rewards those who create and at the same time listen to the consumer. Walmart is successful because it can offer the products to a consumer at a lower cost thanks to its size. Does Walmart place at risk the small family owned stores? Yes it does, however, if people truly cared about them, they would shop there and pay more rather than shop at Walmart, but they don't do they.

Capitalism is not about greed but rather about profit. Those who are successful are those who put the best product on the market at the lowest cost to the consumer. Captialism's beauty is that it is a mutually beneficial system to all who voluntarily use it. Capitalism does not work off of compulsion, but rather off of voluntary choice. What can be more moral than that????

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-