hkbajwa -

I scarcely know where to begin after reading your post.

hkbajwa :: The jews were gonna die whether they had guns or not i think that's pretty obvious. THe genocide was so truly shocking that no number of guns could have prevented it. ::

And where did I contend that it would be "prevented" by Jews having guns.

hkbajwa :: for 5 million plus jews who died and for their families and friends , a few more dead nazis would hardly have been a comfort.::

That is your opinion. Had my relatives been treated that way, I would be proud to know they went out fighting.

hkjabwa :: This thread is about whether people should have guns or not. Lets take the number of innocent people killed each year because of guns. And then we should hold that up against the comfort felt by the dead person because he took down a couple of baddies with him.::

Comfort felt by the dead person...yes, very funny hkjabwa.
But seriously,
If you think that some UN-type dictate is going to keep guns away from the people who actually do the harm with them, you are more naive even than I.

hkjawba :: I don't know about you, but the survival of even ONE human has a higher priority than certain death with "dignity" for 1000 people.::

You have just authored a very obvious logical fallacy above. Do you see it? In other words, you have presumed that because b follows a, then b was caused by a.

hkjabwa :: Also i would like to explore something else. When we talk about dying with dignity, how does waving a gun about in your death spasms increase the dignity of death? ::

Can you seriously be arguing that there is not more dignity in dying in a gunfight vs. being herded naked and shorn into a slaughterhouse?

hkjawba :: Nothing is more undignified than a man's survival being subject to the permission of another human being. ::

He shoots, he scores. Refer to my last comment above.

hkjawba :: SO when you are killed, be it while you take down 50 baddies with you, or peacefully with a bullet in the back of your head. The fact that another human robs you of your life, also robs the death of dignity. It is the ultimate rape. ::

Let's not adulterate the issue; it is not rape, it is murder. And very few of the Jews in the Shoah died "peacefully with a bullet in the back of their head".

hkjabwa :: At the risk of repeating myself, the best way to make sure nobody dies is to make sure that people have no reason to fight.::

Naivete confirmed. People will always find a reason to fight. Even if you divided all material resources as evenly as possibly, some people would get to live by the ocean and some would have to live in Akron Ohio.

hkwjaba :: If you need a gun at home because somebody is gonna break in and steal your stuff, then you need to have less stuff. ::

Is that right? And what if it is your partner that they want...do you get rid of him or her?
Honestly, hkjabwa, idealism is a good thing but it has to be tempered with reality.

hkjabwa :: Guns have only increased the degree of violence in fights. Not done anything to stop the fighting. ::

Yes, I suppose it is far more pleasant to get my head bashed in with a baseball bat than to be shot.
Firearms allow people to protect their homes and their families.
If guns are outlawed, only outlaws and the government will have guns.