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Men and Abortion

Abortion How do you feel about abortion? Are you pro-choice or pro-life? Defend your views on abortion in this forum.

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Old 07-24-2007, 02:52 AM   #141 (permalink)
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There are clearly two separate legal issues here:

1) Does the father have the right, by means of enforcement by the state, to force a woman to carry his child to term or abort it?

(If the state cannot force a woman to carry a father's child to term, at least under a certain set of conditions, then a father certainly doesn't have the right to force a woman to carry a father's child to term, again under a certain set of conditions.)

2) Does either the father or the mother (or both) have the right, by means of enforcement by the state, to deprive their child of the support he or she needs after birth?

(Evidently, it is in the state's interest that all children have the support of their parents...or others who are legally assigned to that duty.)

Thus, anyone who seeks to argue about these two separate issues as if they are one issue is ignorant of the actual views of the state.

And, anyone that says the father has the right to legally control the outcome of a mother's pregnancy would automatically have to conclude that it is really the state, rather than the father, who has the legal ability to control the outcome of a mother's pregnancy.
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:07 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forester814 View Post

Is that true? I've never heard that before.
(Then again, I've never had a reason to look into it, either.)
Maybe this is something that varies state to state?

What a tragedy if it is true. Yet another instance where our current health care and insurance system is failing those that need it most.
Yes, it's true. At least in California it is.

I was not married to my 'ex' with my first 3 sons. We had been living together for 7 years, though. For Zack, the youngest of the three, I was at the time out of work. Because his insurance wouldn't cover us, I had to have the pregnancy and delivery under Medicaid.
Old 07-24-2007, 08:20 AM   #143 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Even simpler - when a woman gets pregnant without any participation from a man - then she gets to decide.

Until then she should be required to get the fathers approval before killing his baby
I have to agree with AG. You can't force a woman to bring this thing to term. 9 months + recovery time... That could cost you a job... I say if you want men to be able to participate so badly, we develop a way that men who so desperately want these kids can have a womb surgically implanted, and the men can endure the pregnancy... I have a feeling there won't be many men lining up for the procedure. It's real easy for a man to want a woman to have the child, he's not the one who has to endure it.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:22 AM   #144 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catus Felidae View Post
So the moment she becomes pregnant, her body becomes HIS property?

What happens if he forces her to continue the pregnancy and it leaves her permanently disabled? Will he be required to support her?

His baby? It's her baby too. And her body. Two out of three gives you a majority. Why should the minority vote win?
Exactly...

I would also say what do you do when these fathers who insist the baby be borne then refuse to support the child and leave it and the mother alone...

Real easy to make a decision when you need not deal with the consequences...
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:19 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Reopened. Bump.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:04 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
Exactly...

I would also say what do you do when these fathers who insist the baby be borne then refuse to support the child and leave it and the mother alone...

Real easy to make a decision when you need not deal with the consequences...

A lot of people think that the legislature can just pass any old law it wants, and all is fine. Laws get tossed by the courts all the time. For being too vague, contradicting other laws already in existence, and certainly for being unconstitutional. A law of this nature is a direct violation of the fourth and thirteenth amendments.

Where is the money to enforce this law going to come from? That must be specified as well. Can you imagine the tax increase necessary just for the extra judges that would be needed!


Old 07-25-2007, 10:11 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catus Felidae View Post
A lot of people think that the legislature can just pass any old law it wants, and all is fine. Laws get tossed by the courts all the time. For being too vague, contradicting other laws already in existence, and certainly for being unconstitutional. A law of this nature is a direct violation of the fourth and thirteenth amendments.

Where is the money to enforce this law going to come from? That must be specified as well. Can you imagine the tax increase necessary just for the extra judges that would be needed!
I just wonder how a father could legally force a pregnant women to carry a child to term if the state couldn't do the same thing.

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Old 07-25-2007, 10:20 AM   #148 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloney_detector View Post
I just wonder how a father could legally force a pregnant women to carry a child to term if the state couldn't do the same thing.

(Welcome Cat! Long time, no see. )
That's just it Baloney, he can't. The only way you could make this law work, is to make becoming pregnant a crime for all women.


Nice to see you again.
Old 07-25-2007, 10:32 AM   #149 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catus Felidae View Post
That's just it Baloney, he can't. The only way you could make this law work, is to make becoming pregnant a crime for all women.


Nice to see you again.
I'd say that it would be the state, rather than the father, who, in theory, would have the right to force a woman to carry a child to term since laws are written in the interest of the state, rather than in the interest of the people...at least in the US.


(I hope you have been well.)
Old 07-25-2007, 10:41 AM   #150 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloney_detector View Post
I'd say that it would be the state, rather than the father, who, in theory, would have the right to force a woman to carry a child to term since laws are written in the interest of the state, rather than in the interest of the people...at least in the US.


(I hope you have been well.)
True. In order for the state to pass a criminal law, it must have an interest in the situation. The SC has already ruled that the state doesn't have an interest in seeing that a child is born until the 6th month. Even then, it can only prohibit abortion. It can't control a womans otherwise legal behavior. So....the law would have to specify that this is a civil matter. But, they can't. Civil agreements that violate the law/constitution are void. So it would have to be a criminal matter. But you can't do that either. Laws aren't allowed to violate the constitution any more than civil agreements. So we're back to making it a civil matter. But we already know we can't, and I'm getting dizzy! Simply put, "that dog won't bark".

I've been well. Up to my butt in alligators as usual.
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