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Trial averted over human life beginning

Abortion How do you feel about abortion? Are you pro-choice or pro-life? Defend your views on abortion in this forum.

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Old 09-12-2007, 07:13 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
Zefs are not babies

They are zygotes/embryoes/fetuses.
Yet again you try and jump through multiple semantical hoops to try and rationalise to your self that abortion isn't murder.

The rest of us remain unconvinced by your verbal acrobatics.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:15 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
Whether abortion is right or wrong is not a matter for government to enforce.

Why not?

If government can enforce what you drink, what you wear and where you can park your car, why shouldn't it want to protect the lives of unborn babies?
Old 09-12-2007, 07:25 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
But human life DOES begin at fertilisation!

All you seem to be saying is that, in the case of twins or multiple babies, the others develop some time after the initial fertilisation

So what?.

None of this does anything to alter the fact that abortion is still murder.

Abortion of twins is double murder.
Well, evidently there is no certainty that human life begins at fertilization.

And the term "murder" is a legal word strictly applying to an act that is illegal...otherwise it is some blameworthy event.

And I'm sure you know these two things even though you pretend that you don't.
Old 09-12-2007, 07:28 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by baloney_detector View Post
Well, evidently there is no certainty that human life begins at fertilization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Why are you in any doubt about that?
Do you still believe the earth is flat too?




And the term "murder" is a legal word strictly applying to an act that is illegal...otherwise it is some blameworthy event.
Legality is a man-made construct which doesn't always align with morality or what is right.

It's illegal for under-21's to drink alcohol in the US but in the rest of the world 18 year olds can drink with alacrity.

Which is right?

BTW Scott Peterson was prosecuted for the murder of his wife Laci AND their unborn child.
Old 09-12-2007, 07:52 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Why not?

If government can enforce what you drink, what you wear and where you can park your car, why shouldn't it want to protect the lives of unborn babies?
Government regulates what you drink, what you wear, and where you can park your car to maintain order in society. You can, however, drink what you want, wear what you want, and park your car where you want on your own private property. The lives of fetuses don't effect society, and protection of them is strictly a matter of privacy as there is hardly anyplace more private than the womb.
The greatest danger to liberty lurks in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.

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Old 09-12-2007, 07:54 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
Government regulates what you drink, what you wear, and where you can park your car to maintain order in society. You can, however, drink what you want, wear what you want, and park your car where you want on your own private property. The lives of fetuses don't effect society, and protection of them is strictly a matter of privacy as there is hardly anyplace more private than the womb.
You certainly come up with some curious "arguments"!

SO if I murder people in the privacy of my home then it doesn't effect society and therefore it's ok??

What are your criteria for effecting society? ( I think you meant Affecting society).
Old 09-12-2007, 08:10 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
You certainly come up with some curious "arguments"!

SO if I murder people in the privacy of my home then it doesn't effect society and therefore it's ok??
If you murder PEOPLE in the privacy of your home, it WILL affect society, as those people will be missed. Fetuses aren't people.



Quote:
What are your criteria for effecting society? ( I think you meant Affecting society).



You're right, affect as in "to produce an effect upon"....People affect society, fetuses don't.
The greatest danger to liberty lurks in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.

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Old 09-12-2007, 08:22 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
If you murder PEOPLE in the privacy of your home, it WILL affect society, as those people will be missed. Fetuses aren't people.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So are you saying you think murder is illegal because the victims will be "missed"??

If the victim is a drifter with no friends or family, then they could be murdered with impunity?

Doesn't murder have something to do with the wrongness of taking a life??





You're right, affect as in "to produce an effect upon"....People affect society, fetuses don't.
So people who have no effect on society (whatever that means) fall into the same category as unborn children (sorry, fetuses or zefs)??

This has to be your feeblest argument so far!
Old 09-12-2007, 09:23 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloney_detector View Post
First of all, I would think that many-if not most-of us here have had basic biology at least in high school. That reference should be more than sufficient in this discussion if we understood what was taught therein.

Secondly, how can the life of something exist for something that doesn't, in fact, exist?

Surely, a single fertilized egg exists after fertilization. But an identical twin, again, doesn't exist if there is only one cell.

So, how can you say something exists when it doesn't actually exist...regardless if there is a single cell at fertilization prior to cell division?

(One could also argue that twins came from the same germ cells too.)
One could argue that twins come from light bulbs. But the fact will remain that monozygotic twins come from a single egg which was fertilized by a single sperm. I've posted two links which state that. Do you have one that states otherwise?
Old 09-12-2007, 09:37 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
And fertilized eggs have a life span. Elaborate. What exactly is the life span of a fertilized egg since it doesn't die when it grows beyond eggdom like an unfertilized egg.

Infants have a life span. Elaborate. Infants don't "die" when they grow beyond infancy like unfertilized eggs.


Teenagers have a life span? Elaborate. Teenagers don't "die" when they become young adults like unfertilized eggs.


Adults have a life span? Elaborate. And exactly what is the specific life span of the adult human considering some live well into their 100's and others don't get anywhere near that old.

None of this effects whether abortion is wrong. Whether abortion is right or wrong is not a matter for government to enforce.
I disagree. Abortion is killing/homicide/murder and the government does have an interest in enforcing a ban on such acts.
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