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| Abortion How do you feel about abortion? Are you pro-choice or pro-life? Defend your views on abortion in this forum. |
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| Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Seattle (grew up around D.C.) Gender: ![]() Posts: 7,876 Country: ![]()
| Abortion lowers crime significantly The following is from the book "Freakonomics" by Steven Levitt: Perhaps the most dramatic effect of legalized abortion, however, and one that would take years to reveal itself, was its impact on crime. In the early 1990s, just as the first cohort of children born after Roev. Wade was hitting its late teen years—the years during which young men enter their criminal prime—the rate of crime began to fall. What this cohort was missing, of course, were the children who stood the greatest chance of becoming criminals. And the crime rate continued to fall as an entire generation came of age minus the children whose mothers had not wanted to bring a child into the world. Legalized abortion led to less unwantedness; unwantedness leads to high crime; legalized abortion, therefore, led to less crime. This theory is bound to provoke a variety of reactions, ranging from disbelief to revulsion, and a variety of objections, ranging from the quotidian to the moral. The likeliest first objection is the most straightforward one: is the theory true? Perhaps abortion and crime are merely correlated and not causal. It may be more comforting to believe what the newspapers say, that the drop in crime was due to brilliant policing and clever gun control and a surging economy. We have evolved with a tendency to link causality to things we can touch or feel, not to some distant or difficult phenomenon. We believe especially in near-term causes: a snake bites your friend, he screams with pain, and he dies. The snakebite, you conclude, must have killed him. Most of the time, such a reckoning is correct. But when it comes to cause and effect, there is often a trap in such open-and-shut thinking. We smirk now when we think of ancient cultures that embraced faulty causes—the warriors who believed, for instance, that it was their raping of a virgin that brought them victory on the battlefield. But we too embrace faulty causes, usually at the urging of an expert proclaiming a truth in which he has a vested interest. How, then, can we tell if the abortion-crime link is a case of causality rather than simply correlation? One way to test the effect of abortion on crime would be to measure crime data in the five states where abortion was made legal before the Supreme Court extended abortion rights to the rest of the country. In New York, California, Washington, Alaska, and Hawaii, a woman had been able to obtain a legal abortion for at least two years before Roe v. Wade. And indeed, those early-legalizing states saw crime begin to fall earlier than the other forty-five states and the District of Columbia. Between 1988 and 1994, violent crime in the early-legalizing states fell 13 percent compared to the other states; between 1994 and 1997, their murder rates fell 23 percent more than those of the other states. But what if those early legalizers simply got lucky? What else might we look for in the data to establish an abortion-crime link? One factor to look for would be a correlation between each state’s abortion rate and its crime rate. Sure enough, the states with the highest abortion rates in the 1970s experienced the greatest crime drops in the 1990s, while states with low abortion rates experienced smaller crime drops. (This correlation exists even when controlling for a variety of factors that influence crime: a state’s level of incarceration, number of police, and its economic situation.) Since 1985, states with high abortion rates have experienced a roughly 30 percent drop in crime relative to low-abortion states. (New York City had high abortion rates and lay within an early-legalizing state, a pair of facts that further dampen the claim that innovative policing caused the crime drop.) Moreover, there was no link between a given state’s abortion rate and its crime rate before the late 1980s—when the first cohort affected by legalized abortion was reaching its criminal prime—which is yet another indication that Roe v. Wade was indeed the event that tipped the crime scale. There are even more correlations, positive and negative, that shore up the abortion-crime link. In states with high abortion rates, the entire decline in crime was among the post-Roe cohort as opposed to older criminals. Also, studies of Australia and Canada have since established a similar link between legalized abortion and crime. And the post-Roe cohort was not only missing thousands of young male criminals but also thousands of single, teenage mothers—for many of the aborted baby girls would have been the children most likely to replicate their own mothers’ tendencies. To discover that abortion was one of the greatest crime-lowering factors in American history is, needless to say, jarring. It feels less Darwinian than Swiftian; it calls to mind a long ago dart attributed to G. K. Chesterton: when there aren’t enough hats to go around, the problem isn’t solved by lopping off some heads. The crime drop was, in the language of economists, an “unintended benefit” of legalized abortion. But one need not oppose abortion on moral or religious grounds to feel shaken by the notion of a private sadness being converted into a public good. --- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope --- There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence. | |||||||||||||||||||||
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| | #2 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Seattle (grew up around D.C.) Gender: ![]() Posts: 7,876 Country: ![]()
| Re: Abortion lowers crime significantly What do you guys think of this? I think this speaks volumes for the support to keep abortion legal. --- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope --- There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence. | |||||||||||||||||||||
| | #3 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Seattle (grew up around D.C.) Gender: ![]() Posts: 7,876 Country: ![]()
| Re: Abortion lowers crime significantly The silence in here speaks volumes. --- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope --- There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence. | |||||||||||||||||||||
| | #4 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Community Leader ![]() Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New England Shoreline Gender: ![]() Posts: 865 Country: ![]()
| Are we any more moral, or are we finding ways around it? Our Task must be to free ourselves... by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures, the whole of nature, and its beauty. Albert Einstein Hans Küng: "There will be peace on earth when there is peace among the world religions." | |||||||||||||||||||||
| | #5 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Moderator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,612
| Re: Abortion lowers crime significantly Quote:
Godbless, Tadpole. “I am a Republican. I\'m loyal to the party of Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt. And I believe that my party, in some ways, has strayed from those principles, particularly on the issue of fiscal discipline.” -John McCain "Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." -Jamie Raskin | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| | #6 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Seattle (grew up around D.C.) Gender: ![]() Posts: 7,876 Country: ![]()
| Quote:
Well it is certainly a safer society and I would argue more moral as a result of this. --- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope --- There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| | #7 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Senator ![]() Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 5,836
| Quote:
But if somebody doesn't see first trimester abortions as "immoral" in the first place, this would prove informational and beneficial. Plus, I see the above as a decent response to some people claiming expectant mothers want to just *have sex and not deal with the consequences* ... And on another level, a parallel with this an capital punishment exists. And while I cannot state how controversial or conclusive the evidence is, I do know evidence exists to further the argument that capital punishment is not a deterrent on crime... Just food for thought... | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| | #8 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Omaha Beach Posts: 7,298
| I find it interesting that William Bennett made a point out of pointing out the absurdity of this - and he was lambasted by everyone for doing so. I guess it's okay to believe this, so long as it's the right person saying it. | |||||||||||||||||||||
| | #9 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Seattle (grew up around D.C.) Gender: ![]() Posts: 7,876 Country: ![]()
| Quote:
While his comments were correct they don't apply to a specific race. He should have known how it go over. --- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope --- There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Omaha Beach Posts: 7,298
| Quote:
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