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Abortion How do you feel about abortion? Are you pro-choice or pro-life? Defend your views on abortion in this forum.

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Old 01-14-2008, 08:08 PM   #101 (permalink)
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How? Unless you know for sure that a specific embryo/fetus would have grown up to be a 'great person', you can't say if it's a tragedy or a blessing.

For all you know, they could have grown up to be a Charles Manson, an Adolph Hitler, or a Shrub.
Or a Winston Churchill, a Paul McCartney or a Pele.

The tragedy I was referring to was the moral decline such that a woman doesn't even know who made her pregnant!
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:14 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Or a Winston Churchill, a Paul McCartney or a Pele.

The tragedy I was referring to was the moral decline such that a woman doesn't even know who made her pregnant!
Who said that the woman didn't know?

I said that the man would have to PROVE he was the father.

If she wanted an abortion, and he wanted to stop her, do you think she's going to agree that he's the father? Of course she isn't. She's going to claim that someone else is, and he is going to have to PROVE paternity in order to have legal standing to object to the abortion. Until he proves paternity, he has no legal standing. No legal standing means no right to file an objection to the abortion.

Get it now?


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Old 01-14-2008, 09:01 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Who said that the woman didn't know?

I said that the man would have to PROVE he was the father.

If she wanted an abortion, and he wanted to stop her, do you think she's going to agree that he's the father? Of course she isn't. She's going to claim that someone else is, and he is going to have to PROVE paternity in order to have legal standing to object to the abortion. Until he proves paternity, he has no legal standing. No legal standing means no right to file an objection to the abortion.

Get it now?

Thanks for demonstrating my earlier point about the crumbling moral standards of western society
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Old 01-15-2008, 07:34 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Thanks for demonstrating my earlier point about the crumbling moral standards of western society
How does the man having to prove he is the father demonstrate the 'crumbling moral standards of western society'?

Would you prefer a society where any man can claim 'ownership' of any pregnant woman simply because he wants to?
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Old 01-15-2008, 07:47 AM   #105 (permalink)
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How does the man having to prove he is the father demonstrate the 'crumbling moral standards of western society'?

Would you prefer a society where any man can claim 'ownership' of any pregnant woman simply because he wants to?
Catus, I believe the point being made is evident. If the moral standards were higher, there would be NO question who the father is of the baby the mother is carrying.

The point being that multiple sex partners, so many sex partners that one does not even know who the father is, is a sign of a crumbling moral standard in society.

OhDear

p.s. it is not in my awareness that men try to stake claims on pregnant women unless they are the birth father, and then "stake claim" is a strange expression.
Old 01-15-2008, 07:58 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Catus, I believe the point being made is evident. If the moral standards were higher, there would be NO question who the father is of the baby the mother is carrying.

The point being that multiple sex partners, so many sex partners that one does not even know who the father is, is a sign of a crumbling moral standard in society.

OhDear

p.s. it is not in my awareness that men try to stake claims on pregnant women unless they are the birth father, and then "stake claim" is a strange expression.
You're assuming that the mother does not know who the father is.

In the situation I am proposing, the mother wants an abortion and the father doesn't. The father could easily be the only sexual partner the woman has ever had, however that doesn't help the father if she wishes to abort. All she would have to do is claim that he 'might not' be the father, and then he would have to prove paternity.

As for 'staking a claim', I would imagine that anyone psychologically twisted enough to support blowing up clinics to save feti, would be twisted enough to claim paternity of any fetus to 'save it'.

If we are to enact this law, that the father can veto an abortion, then the law is going to have to be enforcible. The first thing that is going to have to be proven, in every case, is that the father is actually the father. If the mother isn't willing to back him up, how is he going to prove it?

It's all well and good to say 'we need a law', but if you can't make it work, you're just spitting into the wind.
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Old 01-15-2008, 08:25 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Catus Felidae View Post
You're assuming that the mother does not know who the father is.

In the situation I am proposing, the mother wants an abortion and the father doesn't. The father could easily be the only sexual partner the woman has ever had, however that doesn't help the father if she wishes to abort. All she would have to do is claim that he 'might not' be the father, and then he would have to prove paternity.

As for 'staking a claim', I would imagine that anyone psychologically twisted enough to support blowing up clinics to save feti, would be twisted enough to claim paternity of any fetus to 'save it'.

If we are to enact this law, that the father can veto an abortion, then the law is going to have to be enforcible. The first thing that is going to have to be proven, in every case, is that the father is actually the father. If the mother isn't willing to back him up, how is he going to prove it?

It's all well and good to say 'we need a law', but if you can't make it work, you're just spitting into the wind.


I have to state for the record that the people who are guilty of blowing up abortion clinics are not doing so as birth fathers of babies either about to be aborted or after the fact. These are not crimes of passion for a particular child, but are crimes of mad religion.

And again, I am only siding with the man who said that questioning paternity to the extent proposed by the pro-choice folk who want no one to postpone or stop an abortion is an expression of a much different moral paradigm than what this nation has ever known previously.

Whereas I am not necessarily pro-life, I am certainly not going to ride out the amoral whimsy that has been expressed in this thread by many. If abortion is an essential to pursue in any given circumstance, it ought to be the last resort after all other options have been totally investigated and weighed. If a father steps up to the plate to take responsibility for the child, then his character and resources ought to be considered.

To seek abortion without much deliberation under the misconception ( no pun intended) that it is a woman's body, therefore a woman's choice is a mockery of the very sex act that she engaged in by choice with the father of the child.

OhDear
Old 01-15-2008, 08:31 AM   #108 (permalink)
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If a father steps up to the plate to take responsibility for the child, then his character and resources ought to be considered.

OhDear
That's all well and good to say, BUT, how are you going to make a law that works?

Perhaps I spend too much time with lawyers, but when someone proposes a law, I can't help but wonder just how it's going to be written in order to be valid.
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Old 01-15-2008, 08:37 AM   #109 (permalink)
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That's all well and good to say, BUT, how are you going to make a law that works?

Perhaps I spend too much time with lawyers, but when someone proposes a law, I can't help but wonder just how it's going to be written in order to be valid.

DNA testing from the womb. They do it all the time.

I'd also like to say that abortion clinic's are not being bombed anymore. Name the last time it happened.
Old 01-15-2008, 08:38 AM   #110 (permalink)
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That's all well and good to say, BUT, how are you going to make a law that works?

Perhaps I spend too much time with lawyers, but when someone proposes a law, I can't help but wonder just how it's going to be written in order to be valid.
Step backwards, Catus. The only way to make it work is to overturn the legality of abortion as it is written now. Not add on to the present law that sprung up from Roe v. Wade. Scrap it and start over.

Kind of like how folk get a commitment on people in the courts after a doctor testifies and others. Every abortion should be a matter of a court approval. How's that for job security if you work in the legal profession?

OhDear
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