Let god be thy judge

garysher · 03-24-2008, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

No, Gary, I don't know about you. That is why I asked. I have not claimed to have more life experience than you, I made a statement about how you seem to find the world to be a place where the majority of people are good, responsible, and carefully raising their children. I tend to find that to be something that someone who had a more privileged type of life would think. And you certainly cannot claim to know my life experience to be less than yours, by your own words to me in regard to what you thought of as an assumption on my part.

So now you seem to be saying that only people with "privileged" lifestyles can be good, responsible parents??

And I suppose you extrapolate that premise by believing that people from an under-privileged background (whatever that means) have a ready made excuse for aborting their children, going into prostitution, or doing whatever else it takes to get by?

waitingtables · 03-25-2008, 07:52 AM

Well, they would have a much more acceptable excuse for doing it, then the wealthy would. And no, not only wealthy people are good parents, some of the wealthy are probably worse parents then their poorer counterparts. But, it is much more likely that those living in the economically depressed areas would have problems with drugs, or are going to do other things to get by, like prostitution, robberies, etc. And it is less likely for those poorer people to have abortions as well. My point is that you cannot make laws based on the premise that the majority of parents are good parents, when the fact is that there are many, many, bad parents out there, in all economic strata. And that at 16, I was a better judge of my life than my parents were. And I am not the exception, there are plenty of others who shouldn't have to rely on their parents judgement about their lives when faced with certain circumstances. I do think that the majority of kids will speak to their parents about this kind of thing, but there are still many who wouldn't, and shouldn't have to.

garysher · 03-25-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

Well, they would have a much more acceptable excuse for doing it, then the wealthy would. And no, not only wealthy people are good parents, some of the wealthy are probably worse parents then their poorer counterparts. But, it is much more likely that those living in the economically depressed areas would have problems with drugs, or are going to do other things to get by, like prostitution, robberies, etc. And it is less likely for those poorer people to have abortions as well. My point is that you cannot make laws based on the premise that the majority of parents are good parents, when the fact is that there are many, many, bad parents out there, in all economic strata. And that at 16, I was a better judge of my life than my parents were. And I am not the exception, there are plenty of others who shouldn't have to rely on their parents judgement about their lives when faced with certain circumstances. I do think that the majority of kids will speak to their parents about this kind of thing, but there are still many who wouldn't, and shouldn't have to.

But you cannot base legislation on the premise that some kids have lousy parents!

If the parents really are that bad then the children should be taken into care by the state.

If we take your approach then where does it end?

Children don't need to tell parents about their school report? Or where they are going at night? and who with?

Your approach is a recipe for parental irresponsibility.

waitingtables · 03-25-2008, 12:31 PM

My ideas have nothing to do with any other aspect of parenting. My ideas are to do with a person who would be a parent in the near future. That is unlike any other aspect of childhood. And an individual has the right to decide for themselves if they want to become a parent, even if they aren't 18 yet. So don't throw all those other issues in with this one, they don't compare. You must base legislation on what is best for the individual, not their parents. Because at whatever age a minor becomes pregnant, it is their own future that is to be decided, and should be left up to them. Hopefully, they would seek the advice of a parent, but it shouldn't be a requirement.

garysher · 03-25-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

My ideas have nothing to do with any other aspect of parenting. My ideas are to do with a person who would be a parent in the near future. That is unlike any other aspect of childhood. And an individual has the right to decide for themselves if they want to become a parent, even if they aren't 18 yet. So don't throw all those other issues in with this one, they don't compare.

But once you dispel with the notion of parental consent why should it stop with the issue of abortion?

I think you are trying to avoid the implications of your suggestion.

You must base legislation on what is best for the individual, not their parents. Because at whatever age a minor becomes pregnant, it is their own future that is to be decided, and should be left up to them. Hopefully, they would seek the advice of a parent, but it shouldn't be a requirement.

Suggesting that children should have the right to become legal adults on this one issue is completely wrong, and can't be justified on the basis that some children have lousy parents.

If we don't trust teens with decisions about driving , alcohol, legal contracts etc why should abortion be any exception?

Also, the future of the unborn baby has to be considered as well as the mother.

waitingtables · 03-26-2008, 08:01 AM

The future of the unborn baby is left for the mother of the unborn baby to decide, no matter her age. If a minor becomes a parent, should they have to check with their own parents before going in for a gynelogical exam, or signing up for WIC, or signing consent forms for a medical procedure that their child needs? This issue doesn't trickle into other areas. A minor still has the right to decide whether or not to be a parent, in the first trimester, just like any other woman does.

garysher · 03-26-2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

The future of the unborn baby is left for the mother of the unborn baby to decide, no matter her age. If a minor becomes a parent, should they have to check with their own parents before going in for a gynelogical exam, or signing up for WIC, or signing consent forms for a medical procedure that their child needs? This issue doesn't trickle into other areas. A minor still has the right to decide whether or not to be a parent, in the first trimester, just like any other woman does.

Minors aren't women, they're children.

I could not disagree with you more (apart from all the other things I disagree with you about!).

OKgrannie · 03-26-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Minors aren't women, they're children.

I could not disagree with you more (apart from all the other things I disagree with you about!).

If a minor requires parental permission to have an abortion, surely she must need that permission to become a parent, a much more life-changing event than abortion. I imagine if parents have the say-so, many more parents will be requiring abortion than forbidding it.

hot dragon · 03-26-2008, 10:40 PM

technically, it was a crime for a minor to get pregnant in the first place. if the law is going to be rigidly interpreted and implemented, then she needs to be questioned about who impregnated her, so he can be charged, and she can technically be charged too, unless it was not consensual.

any laws will be irrelevant anyway unless they are absolutely rigidly enforced. in australia they are so vague, so open to interpretation, that every case is dealt with differently anyway, depending on the unique features of the girl involved and her circumstances. this probably works as well as any other system.

rigidly enforced laws will benefit some, but be harmful to others. better to allow a bit of flexibility in how it all happens, and who is involved.

waitingtables · 03-27-2008, 06:56 AM

I don't know of any state where the age of consent is 17. At 17, you are technically considered a minor. If a girl at 15 is pregnant, she is a woman, isn't she, even if she is still a minor? And those who don't believe abortion should be legal for anyone, obviously will disagree with allowing a minor to have one, with or without parental consent. They wouldn't want to allow one if the parents totally agreed with the minor's decision to terminate. What do you say of that then? Parents know best for their children, except for when they disagree with your positions that abortion shouldn't be legal.