I do not think that you can believe 2+2=5. You can change what you say and what you do to pretend that you believe 2+2=5, but you cannot change your belief.

If you disagree then do it. Go ahead and change your belief so that you think 2+2=5. If you truly believe that 2+2=5, then bet someone $200 that 2+2=5. I know that you would never make this bet, because even if you say you believe that 2+2=5, in reality you know that it does not. You do not really believe that 2+2=5.

How about dragons? Can you simply decide to believe that dragons exist? Believe that all you have to do is say the words, "Dragons, come to me!" and dragons will appear at your side. Surely if you can decide to change your beliefs, you can decide to believe that those dragons will indeed appear. Then, once you believe this, make a bet with me that those dragons will appear, for if you truly believe that they will appear, then why not make a bet with a foolish nonbeliever such as myself? But again, I do not think you will make this bet, for you cannot truly make yourself believe that dragons exist.

To some atheists, believing in God may be similar to believing in dragons. Like you, they can't simply decide to believe in dragons. But this doesn't mean their beliefs can't change. If a dragon flew up to an atheist and landed right in front of him, you can be pretty sure that his beliefs would change. But you see, there must be a reason for his beliefs to change: there must be evidence that his current beliefs are wrong. No person can change beliefs without evidence.

Are you so dumb that you've forgotten what you wrote? Or are you just hoping everybody will not notice?

Here's your line that I first responded to: PEOPLE CHANGE WHAT THEY BELIEVE ALL THE TIME - DUE TO GATHERING MORE INFORMATION, LEARNING MORE, ETC.

No question. People change what they believe all the time.

So go ahead and keep arguing in circles if you want. But just remember that the old maxim, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit" doesn't work with everyone here.

What are you even talking about?

If I SAW a dragon, I'd "believe in dragons" in so far as I'd believe the exist.

But what does that have to do with anything?

I think your reading comprehension skills are lacking. I am well aware what you first responded too, but that is not what you were responding to in that quote. I said "No, conversion is the action of switching to a religion that better suits their beliefs. In other words, if I were to convert to Christianity, that would mean that I believed in it before I converted. How can someone truly convert to a religion they don't believe in?
Tell me, when did you make a conscience decision that you believed your core beliefs?"

And you said my logic was flawed. I pointed out that there was no logical proofs in my statement so it cannot be logically flawed and now you are going back to the beginning of our debate. But the bottom line is there is no logical fallacy in any of my arguments so it is irrelevant.

Now I think your statement about people's beliefs changing due to gathering information and education is interesting and a logical fallacy. It is a straw man. I have never claimed that beliefs cannot change due to information or education. I am arguing that beliefs can't change by will. I think that maxim you speak of is probably dear to your heart. But if you want to continue to argue with me, then simply give me one example of a time where someone changed their beliefs with no other factor than their will. Thank you.

Can you really not see the relevance?

You would believe dragons exist if you saw them. You cannot decide to believe in dragons just because you want to. That is the crux of this demy argument.

That would be "demi" argument.

And the crux of it is that people change their/our minds all the time - contrary to what you are asserting.

Be very careful. You're a little boy strutting around in men's clothing...

Do a study on the ancient greek word "agape", which was one of their 4 derivatives/aspects of love. It was/is a VOLITIONAL love and devotion - a DECISION based on will, not on the lovability of the recipient.


Chew on that one for awhile, then get back to me.

Yes, you would believe in a dragon if you saw a dragon, just as an atheist would believe in God if he saw God.

But try believing in a dragon without seeing one: simply decide that dragons exist. If you have truly succeeded in believing that dragons exist, then surely you would be willing to put a bet on it, as I suggested in my last post.

But if you cannot simply change your belief in dragons by making a decision, then how can you ask atheists to change their belief in God simply by making a decision?

In order to believe in dragons, you'd need to see very convincing evidence that dragons exist. In order for an atheist to change his belief about God, he'd need to see very convincing evidence that God exists. Simply deciding to believe in God is not possible.

Love and devotion are not beliefs.

Love describes the way I feel about someone. It may very well be possible to decide to feel good about someone. But changing how I feel about someone is not at all the same as trying to believe that something exists.

Devotion is simply characterized by your actions. If you act loyal to someone, you show devotion. Again, it is not the same thing as changing a belief.

I am telling you: try make yourself believe in dragons. You will find yourself facing the same problem that an atheist trying to believe in God faces.

No, that is contrary to what you think I am asserting even though I have told you in plain terms exactly what my argument is. I am not arguing that people cannot change their minds. I am arguing that people cannot choose what they believe is true. Just like you can't choose to believe that 2+2=5, someone who does not believe in God cannot simply choose to believe God is real.

Good for you. Love is not a belief.