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Abortion How do you feel about abortion? Are you pro-choice or pro-life? Defend your views on abortion in this forum.

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Old 02-16-2007, 05:47 PM   #261 (permalink)
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What if David's mother had decided a baby would complicate her life? We'd never known about King David.
So, we would have come to know King Sean instead.

What if Adolph Hitler's mother, or Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, or Richard Speck's mother, or Joseph Stalin's mother had decided that a baby would complicate her life? How much more beauty might there be in the world?
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Legalized same-sex marriage almost certainly benefits those same-sex couples who choose to marry, as well as the children being raised in those homes. - David Blankenhorn is president of the New York-based Institute for American Values and the author of "The Future of Marriage."
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:59 PM   #262 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
So, we would have come to know King Sean instead.

What if Adolph Hitler's mother, or Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, or Richard Speck's mother, or Joseph Stalin's mother had decided that a baby would complicate her life? How much more beauty might there be in the world?
So now you want to try and justify the murder of unborn children on the offchance they may grow up to be murderers?

BTW How appropriate you use tinkerbelle as your signature
Old 02-16-2007, 06:10 PM   #263 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Observer View Post
What came first, religion...or God?



First of all, I want to commend you for carrying your son to full term in spite of the worries you had concerning your health. But I imagine that your pregnancy, though a possible risk, wasn't as bad as you thought it might be. Even if it was, it is over now and I have no doubt that you are so glad now that you allowed the pregnancy to continue.

But, I disagree that it should be your decision and yours alone. And here's why:

Psalms 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand; When I awake, I am still with You.

King David said, "Before I was born, You knew me." What if David's mother had decided a baby would complicate her life? We'd never known about King David.

The point I'm making is that it is not our choice. Our only choice is before conception.

This might be a tangent, but a thought just occurred to me...

I have heard many people say, when someone dies of anything other than old age, "It was God's will."

Wouldn't it also, then, be the will of God that these pregnancies are terminated? Wouldn't God intervene if the baby is supposed to be born?

As a non-Christian, I'd like to hear a Christian's point of view.
Old 02-16-2007, 07:01 PM   #264 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KnightOfSappho View Post
Natural or artificial are no longer valid arguements IMO since we create and extend life through artificial means.

Unless you are willing to accept that a 6 month fetus born early should be allowed to survive or not by purely natural means, the arguement does not apply.
Does this also apply to adult victims of accidents on life support?

See how inane your reasoning is?
Old 02-16-2007, 07:08 PM   #265 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KnightOfSappho View Post
Murder is defined as 'killing a person unlawfully.'

The definition does not apply to abortion.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right...unless you want to say slavery was once right.
Old 02-16-2007, 07:09 PM   #266 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KnightOfSappho View Post
An unborn, if left alone without the benefit of the mother's body will also not survive.
So will a nursing baby. Your point is??
Old 02-16-2007, 07:12 PM   #267 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KnightOfSappho View Post
What do personal expectations have to do with logic or science?

Everything. It shows your hypocrisy.
Old 02-16-2007, 07:24 PM   #268 (permalink)
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I don't think that anyone would question the fact that an embryo or fetus is human.
As I said in another post, a fingernail clipping is human as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher
Au contraire - a lot of people accept that a fetus is human. That's why a fetus, unlike a fingernail, becomes a baby
Gar?
Do you actually think you were contradicting KoS with your response?
Do you have any clue what KoS actually said?

If you only had the sense to be
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:28 PM   #269 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
So now you want to try and justify the murder of unborn children on the offchance they may grow up to be murderers?
Perhaps the most dramatic effect of legalized abortion, and one that would take years to reveal itself, was its impact on crime.

In the early 1990s, just as the first cohort of children born after Roe v. Wade was hitting its late teen years-the years during which young men enter their criminal prime-the rate of crime began to fall. What this cohort was missing, of course, were the children who stood the greatest chance of becoming criminals. And the crime rate continued to fall as an entire generation came of age minus the children whose mothers had not wanted to bring a child into the world. Legalized abortion led to less unwantedness; unwantedness leads to high crime; legalized abortion, therefore, led to less crime.

This theory is bound to provoke a variety of reactions, ranging from disbelief to revulsion, and a variety of objections, ranging from the quotidian to the moral. The likeliest first objection is the most straightforward one: is the theory true? Perhaps abortion and crime are merely correlated and not causal.

It may be more comforting to believe what the newspapers say, that the drop in crime was due to brilliant policing and clever gun control and a surging economy. We have evolved with a tendency to link causality to things we can touch or feel, not to some distant or difficult phenomenon. We believe especially in near-term causes: a snake bites your friend, he screams with pain, and he dies. The snakebite, you conclude, must have killed him. Most of the time, such a reckoning is correct. But when it comes to cause and effect, there is often a trap in such open-and-shut thinking. We smirk now when we think of ancient cultures that embraced faulty causes-the warriors who believed, for instance, that it was their raping of a virgin that brought them victory on the battlefield. But we too embrace faulty causes, usually at the urging of an expert proclaiming a truth in which he has a vested interest.

How, then, can we tell if the abortion-crime link is a case of causality rather than simply correlation?

One way to test the effect of abortion on crime would be to measure crime data in the five states where abortion was made legal before the Supreme Court extended abortion rights to the rest of the country.

In New York, California, Washington, Alaska, and Hawaii, a woman had been able to obtain a legal abortion for at least two years before Roe v. Wade. And indeed, those early-legalizing states saw crime begin to fall earlier than the other forty-five states and the District of Columbia. Between 1988 and 1994, violent crime in the earlylegalizing states fell 13 percent compared to the other states; between 1994 and 1997, their murder rates fell 23 percent more than those of the other states.

But what if those early legalizers simply got lucky? What else might we look for in the data to establish an abortion-crime link? One factor to look for would be a correlation between each state's abortion rate and its crime rate. Sure enough, the states with the highest abortion rates in the 1970s experienced the greatest crime drops in the 1990s, while states with low abortion rates experienced smaller crime drops. (This correlation exists even when controlling for a variety of factors that influence crime: a state's level of incarceration, number of police, and its economic situation.) Since 1985, states with high abortion rates have experienced a roughly 30 percent drop in crime relative to low-abortion states. (New York City had high abortion rates and lay within an early-legalizing state, a pair of facts that further dampen the claim that innovative policing caused the crime drop.) Moreover, there was no link between a given state's abortion rate and its crime rate before the late 1980s-when the first cohort affected by legalized abortion was reaching its criminal prime-which is yet another indication that Roe v. Wade was indeed the event that tipped the crime scale.

There are even more correlations, positive and negative, that shore up the abortion-crime link.
Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner - William Morrow, 2005
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:43 PM   #270 (permalink)
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There are even more correlations, positive and negative, that shore up the abortion-crime link.
Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner - William Morrow, 2005[/quote]


Where on earth do you dig up this stuff!
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