Let's Move On - Page 4

onlyoneplanet · 02-21-2006, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyoneplanet

But what I'm saying is, if these people actually believed they could make it in America, then their chances are higher. Could they be capable of working hard & 'succeeding'? Certainly. Is this realistic? No, and for a number of reasons, including those that you mentioned dealing with race, class, even gender, and subfactors including education, sexuality/gender roles, religion, etc.

Being poor in America is as much psychological as it is financial, which makes plenty of sense when you think about it; the poor have attained a general 'poor' mentality so to speak, because of pressure put on them from the upper class.

This is where your point of the American Dream comes into play- it is indeed an illusion, and in a very literal sense. Some companies will spend millions just to find out what makes people tick; how to get them to buy things and give them the general idea that having their product will make them happy. And so, as a result of this bombardment of advertisements--these illusions of happiness--the American conscience focuses on material possessions, and subconsciously, we believe that this will make us happy and it does indeed keep us content. Consequently, the American middle class remains blissfully ignorant. And it's all a mind game.

So, since we're now living in a commodity-society, where the middle class is the majority, and having lots of useless stuff is the norm, a standard has been created for this "American Dream"- one in which the goal is basically to have a disposable income; where--if you're poor--you're basically seen as a lower being and like you said, Kat: lazy and stupid.

Unfortunately, this whole mentality created created by our alsmost zealous consumerism has contaminated our politics with it's ideals. And like you said, it generates little-or-no concern for the poor and the homeless, so we see them being brutalized by police, cheated in the courts, and waved off by the general public.

Yes, the working class is very hardworking and determined, but I'm specifically addressing the so-called 'ghetto' American youth- those who have been conditioned by society to disbelieve in themselves. Of course, it's silly to believe that all ghetto youth are like this, but their only choices when it comes to escaping that whole mess, aren't favorable. You're absolutely right when you say they have no shot at becoming rich- basically, they can choose to join the army, go to jail, or die in the street. Not much opportunity there if you ask me.

Sorry if I only repeated some of what you said, Kat, my main goal was to explain the pyschological factors of poverty, and the conditioned respose to the lower class by the middle/upper classes.

The American dream is very possible its that kind of mentality that the left sends to the lower class that makes it seem as if they are useless. My family is lower class so I took advantage of the fact that I don't want to work 11-14 hours per day like my dad so I worked my ass off in school and received a scholarship for college. I have to work, play basketball, and still concentrate on my work but it can be done.

When in doubt, blame the left.

I don't doubt the abilities of the lower class to bump up the ladder in the United States. I doubt that most upper/middle class Americans have a hell of a lot of faith in a person wearing rags. The point I'm trying to make--and you're very obviously missing--is that the poor and the homeless are dealt with by their own government, in an alienating manner.

Don't try to tell me that it's the left's harmful rhetoric that's keeping the poor, in effect, poor. Quite the contrary, in fact- if you'd look into it, you'd see that pretty much all most leftists movements are created by the lower/working class.

onlyoneplanet · 02-21-2006, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ridinhighspeeds

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

RHS, if you lived in the hood for a week of your life I think you would have very different views about it.

I've seen pictures and videos of people living in the hood. I also saw some crazy gang fights from people living in the hood a couple years back and it's absolutely crazy! Again I feel that you do have your point and I feel that someone born into a society like that would most likely adopt the same traits as his peers.

How will affirmative action fix this??

I think witnessing the hood and experiencing it first-hand as a resident are two completely different things.

Nebraskaboy · 02-21-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyoneplanet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyoneplanet

But what I'm saying is, if these people actually believed they could make it in America, then their chances are higher. Could they be capable of working hard & 'succeeding'? Certainly. Is this realistic? No, and for a number of reasons, including those that you mentioned dealing with race, class, even gender, and subfactors including education, sexuality/gender roles, religion, etc.

Being poor in America is as much psychological as it is financial, which makes plenty of sense when you think about it; the poor have attained a general 'poor' mentality so to speak, because of pressure put on them from the upper class.

This is where your point of the American Dream comes into play- it is indeed an illusion, and in a very literal sense. Some companies will spend millions just to find out what makes people tick; how to get them to buy things and give them the general idea that having their product will make them happy. And so, as a result of this bombardment of advertisements--these illusions of happiness--the American conscience focuses on material possessions, and subconsciously, we believe that this will make us happy and it does indeed keep us content. Consequently, the American middle class remains blissfully ignorant. And it's all a mind game.

So, since we're now living in a commodity-society, where the middle class is the majority, and having lots of useless stuff is the norm, a standard has been created for this "American Dream"- one in which the goal is basically to have a disposable income; where--if you're poor--you're basically seen as a lower being and like you said, Kat: lazy and stupid.

Unfortunately, this whole mentality created created by our alsmost zealous consumerism has contaminated our politics with it's ideals. And like you said, it generates little-or-no concern for the poor and the homeless, so we see them being brutalized by police, cheated in the courts, and waved off by the general public.

Yes, the working class is very hardworking and determined, but I'm specifically addressing the so-called 'ghetto' American youth- those who have been conditioned by society to disbelieve in themselves. Of course, it's silly to believe that all ghetto youth are like this, but their only choices when it comes to escaping that whole mess, aren't favorable. You're absolutely right when you say they have no shot at becoming rich- basically, they can choose to join the army, go to jail, or die in the street. Not much opportunity there if you ask me.

Sorry if I only repeated some of what you said, Kat, my main goal was to explain the pyschological factors of poverty, and the conditioned respose to the lower class by the middle/upper classes.

The American dream is very possible its that kind of mentality that the left sends to the lower class that makes it seem as if they are useless. My family is lower class so I took advantage of the fact that I don't want to work 11-14 hours per day like my dad so I worked my ass off in school and received a scholarship for college. I have to work, play basketball, and still concentrate on my work but it can be done.

When in doubt, blame the left.

I don't doubt the abilities of the lower class to bump up the ladder in the United States. I doubt that most upper/middle class Americans have a hell of a lot of faith in a person wearing rags. The point I'm trying to make--and you're very obviously missing--is that the poor and the homeless are dealt with by their own government, in an alienating manner.

Don't try to tell me that it's the left's harmful rhetoric that's keeping the poor, in effect, poor. Quite the contrary, in fact- if you'd look into it, you'd see that pretty much all most leftists movements are created by the lower/working class.

BS.

The left needs the poor without the poor they would not win a damn election. For a group that is so much about the lower class I haven't seen them go to great strides to help their starving brothers.

hevusa · 02-21-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

The left needs the poor without the poor they would not win a damn election. For a group that is so much about the lower class I haven't seen them go to great strides to help their starving brothers.

We have a hard enough time just saving them from the actions of the right

Nebraskaboy · 02-21-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

The left needs the poor without the poor they would not win a damn election. For a group that is so much about the lower class I haven't seen them go to great strides to help their starving brothers.

We have a hard enough time just saving them from the actions of the right

How so?

What strides has the left gone through to make sure that the lower class will suffer any less? Face it the left needs the poor like the right needs the rich. Even with a Democrat in office the poor will be no better off.

hevusa · 02-21-2006, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

The left needs the poor without the poor they would not win a damn election. For a group that is so much about the lower class I haven't seen them go to great strides to help their starving brothers.

We have a hard enough time just saving them from the actions of the right

How so?

Why do you think they are so heavily democratic?? It is because republicans couldn't give two shits about the poor in America. Reps keep wanting to cut funding to programs that could help them.

These people aren't stupid, why the hell would they want to vote for someone that would shoot them in the foot?

Nebraskaboy · 02-21-2006, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

The left needs the poor without the poor they would not win a damn election. For a group that is so much about the lower class I haven't seen them go to great strides to help their starving brothers.

We have a hard enough time just saving them from the actions of the right

How so?

Why do you think they are so heavily democratic?? It is because republicans couldn't give two shits about the poor in America. Reps keep wanting to cut funding to programs that could help them.

These people aren't stupid, why the hell would they want to vote for someone that would shoot them in the foot?

The liberal public seems to care about the poor but again you're not answering my question. What has the left done to help the poor? Very little. They may represent the poor more than the right but you are foolish to believe that the Democrats are really going to help the poor. The Dem's need the poor they would not prosper without it.

hevusa · 02-21-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

The left needs the poor without the poor they would not win a damn election. For a group that is so much about the lower class I haven't seen them go to great strides to help their starving brothers.

We have a hard enough time just saving them from the actions of the right

How so?

Why do you think they are so heavily democratic?? It is because republicans couldn't give two shits about the poor in America. Reps keep wanting to cut funding to programs that could help them.

These people aren't stupid, why the hell would they want to vote for someone that would shoot them in the foot?

The liberal public seems to care about the poor but again you're not answering my question. What has the left done to help the poor? Very little. They may represent the poor more than the right but you are foolish to believe that the Democrats are really going to help the poor. The Dem's need the poor they would not prosper without it.

Democrats try to start and fund programs that will help the poor. Republicans then shoot these programs to hell. Why do you think the left has done so little? It is because they denied to do more by the reps!

This is why we need more parties!

onlyoneplanet · 02-22-2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy

The left needs the poor without the poor they would not win a damn election. For a group that is so much about the lower class I haven't seen them go to great strides to help their starving brothers.

We have a hard enough time just saving them from the actions of the right

How so?

What strides has the left gone through to make sure that the lower class will suffer any less? Face it the left needs the poor like the right needs the rich. Even with a Democrat in office the poor will be no better off.

A joke:

How many democrats does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
None- democrats can't change anything.

Har har, I agree wholeheartedly. If there's one thing that American politics is very well known for, it's complicating things beyond repair. Do the republicans get things done? Yes, but only in the interest of business (and maybe good, Christian morals).

Grassroots action is the only pure means of making good progress in this country, and in this sense, the left has done a HELL OF A LOT for the lower class. But, with grassroots organizing comes a bucketload of problems, so you can't expect us to do it right the first time. Mainstream politics will fuck up and wait for the consequences before doing anything about it (does September 11th ring a bell?)

Knowing that a politician will consider their grievences isn't much consolation. Knowing that their neighbor is organizing a group to feed the hungry or house the homeless will put a hell of a lot of hope in their hearts. Not to mention food in their bellies and a roof over their head. And food and shelter aren't even the half of it!

There are people out there creating youth community centers and organizing workshops for kids dealing with abusive parents (acoholism and drug use is a big problem in lower class areas), homelessness, sex and STDs, substance dependency, depression and other psychological issues, and a whole spectrum of things that lower class youths have to deal with. The best part is that everyone is welcome.

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