Gary, mytmouse, and myself were having a discussion in a different thread about whether gays are being mistreated. I thought we were a bit off-topic, so I decided to continue the conversation here. I will begin by responding to one of Garysher's posts:

These forms of marriage should be allowed, unless we can find some harm in them.

One might argue that such marriages are harmful because they are likely to produce children with birth defects. That is a valid concern. One might further argue that these marriages make it too easy for family members to abuse family-love, for example, a father raises his daughter to love him romantically.

On the other hand, one might say that restricting these forms of marriage is not an effective way to deal with these problems and any benefit we may see does not justify the loss of freedom.

It is a debate that I am not yet certain of, because I have not properly considered both sides of the argument. But this debate is unrelated to same-sex marriage. Same-sex marriage does not duplicate these problems any more than opposite-sex marriage.


Shortsightedness is definitely a disorder. It prevents you from seeing things distant from you.

Balding is a tougher question, though I guess you could point out that most people who are bald wish that they weren't. But I can understand making the case that balding is not a disorder.

Regardless, yes a disorder does need to have some negative effect. If it did not, then why should anyone care about having a disorder?

I have no problem with pedophilia, so long as the pedophile is not hurting or abusing anyone else. Unfortunately for the pedophile, it is difficult to act on that attraction without hurting or abusing someone else.

Balding makes me have to wear a hat most of the time so I don't sunburn the top of my head... LOL.


Yes, I think gays are mistreated.

To the level that GLAAD and similar voices would like us to think?

No.

What in particular do you think is being exagerated?

"Shortsightedness is definitely a disorder. It prevents you from seeing things distant from you."

Jax, despite current (pop) science parroting over and over that "there's nothing inherenlty harmful about homosexuality," I admit a high level of skepticism toward any condition that prevents a person from being sexually attracted only to a healthy specimen of the opposite sex, within an appropriate age range.

There are people who have genuine, romantic/sexual attractions primarily or only toward geriatrics or minor children... as well as a whole host of other deviations from the "norm" of being attracted to attractive people of the opposite gender.

Why does homosexuality get a "magic pass" as being "harmless," when these others do not?

I'm not trying to be hostile, please don't take it that way. I'm merely pointing out that there's reason to think there's a sort of cultural myth being built up around homosexuality.

And while we all (at least should) agree that violence and true bigorty against gay people are vile, we should not on the other hand create an environment where nobody is allowed to ask these questions -- or is merely shouted down as a "homophobe" if they do.

"What in particular do you think is being exagerated?"

To read some of GLAAD's propoganda, you'd think gays will be killed en masse if a single preacher dares to say, "Homosexuality is sinful" from his pulpit.

You would think there's not a gay person alive you can't hardly walk down the street without being beaten up by religious homophobes.

Okay, maybe I'M exageratting to make a point. But honestly when I debate, say, a gay man who lives a relatively peaceful, trouble-free life of what I would consider to be relative wealth with his partner and adopted children (and I have debated online with more than one such individual) and he prattles on about being a "victim" -- while I and many I know struggle to live paycheck-to-paycheck without health insurance and many other things he might take for granted.. it's difficult for me to sympathize.

Not that I resent his success or blame him for my circumstance... I think he should be proud of what he's done, and I love my life, health insurance or no.. .but can you see what I'm getting at, when such a person tries to tell me he's "oppressed," that it might make me snicker just a little?

I think it depends where you live.

I'm a gay man living in a city in England, and I wouldn't say that my sexuality affects the way I'm treated on a day to day basis. Attitudes are certainly far more positive now than they were twenty or thirty years ago, but even then I can't say I experienced much hostility personally - though I knew a lot of people who did.

This month is the 40th anniversary of the legalisation of male homosexual acts in England, and things have changed dramatically since then. Before 1967, homosexual acts between men were illegal (apparently, homosexual acts between women were never illegal, because Queen Victoria refused to believe that such things could happen!). After 1967, homosexuality was still taboo and only very grudgingly legal.

In the last ten years we've seen legislation enacted that effectively equalises the legal position between heterosexuals and homosexuals, except for "marriage" (we have "civil partnerships" instead). The age of consent is the same for gays and straights (16), it is illegal to discriminate on grounds of sexuality in job employment, and the police take homophobic abuse and cases of "queer-bashing" seriously now.

The employment issue is the biggie, really - lesbians and gay men can be out at work; we have openly gay TV presenters, MPs and cabinet ministers, and being gay has not prevented their promotion. This in turn has informed public opinion; people are now very well aware that gays are no more likely to molest children than straights are, and that gay men are capable of doing jobs other than hairdressing or ballet dancing.

It's had a positive effect on the rest of society too - younger people are far more relaxed about gender stereotypes; straight guys will quite happily embrace each other without being scared that everyone will "think I'm queer", and the usual macho stereotypes aren't as prevalent as they once were.

In most states that gay man's job could disappear tomorrow just because he is gay.

It probably won't. But that fact is that it could and he would have no legal recourse.

And if the adoptive father of those children dies?

In most states the other father has no legal right to those children.

My partner has health insurance through her work but I cannot be on it.

She has one co-worker who has had 2 different husbands on the company insurance in the last 5 years. Yet we have been together ten years and I cannot be put on her insurance plan.

And, as for the violence, have you ever heard anyone rant & rave that they were going to kill some straight?

I have on more than one occasion been witness to some fucktard raving about how he was going to kill some "fag" or some "dyke" for some imagined transgression.

Imagine yourself hearing this and knowing that all you need do is say the words, "I'm gay," to have that wrath turned your way.

I don't know whether GLAAD exagerates the problem or not. Truth is that I haven't read a lot of GLAAD's publications.

I do know that we are discriminated against and treated as less than equal by a lot of people. If you were gay, would you not find that totally unacceptable?

"it is illegal to discriminate on grounds of sexuality in job employment,"

Regardless of what one thinks about homosexuality, I agree with that one.

IMO, anything about a person or their life outside of work that does not directly affect a person's job performance is none of the boss' or company's damn business, and should not be a factor in hiring, firing, promotions, demotions or merit-based pay raises.

I just wish there were message boards where more moderates would gather. I want to converse with a gay person that actually understands while I may think that he has a "problem" I don't friggin hate the ground he walks on. I simply don't undersatnd the "why" behind the orientation and that bothers me. I'm not the type that buys the "deal with it" mentality of the whole thing. It seems like everywhere I go there are a bunch of hypersensitive gay people ready to scream "gay is good and you are stupid". It gets to where it pisses you off after a while.