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Old 08-11-2007, 08:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Infidel (a great book and look at Islam)
Ayaan Hirsi Ali

An interview with Colbert, of course he's a joker.

The Colbert Report - Comedy Central - IFILM

She speaks 6 languages.

I've learned much in this book about the clans in Africa and the way they fight and how they feel bound to help only the people that shared the same GGGGGG grandfather's, they are considered a clan if they are related anywhere way back. There is much clan fighting in Africa, as there are in the M.E.

I also didn't know that as far as female genital mutilation, there are different types. The worst is where they cut the labia minora and majora off and there's nothing there but a very small area left where blood can flow out and when women that have had (well actually) any mutilation can only tinkle in drops. When they sit in a public toilet next to a woman that hasn't been mutilated, they can tell that either she's no longer a virgin or never was mutilated.

From what I understand this woman is now living in the USA. The neighbors of hers in Holland complained about her living next door because they knew she was being protected from the Muslims. Two-thirds of school children in Holland are now Muslim and now there's a proposal by Dutch politician Geert Wilders of the Freedom Party to ban the Koran. I'm afraid there will be a 9/11 there but something has to change, this world is in jeopardy with Muslims infiltrating all countries IMO and many countries are now afraid of free speech such as Brussels as noted here on this site:
Ayaan Hirsi Ali en de strijd tegen de radicale islam: English


Readers with an eye on European politics will recognize Ali as the Somali-born member of the Dutch parliament who faced death threats after collaborating on a film about domestic violence against Muslim women with controversial director Theo van Gogh (who was himself assassinated). Even before then, her attacks on Islamic culture as "brutal, bigoted, [and] fixated on controlling women" had generated much controversy. In this suspenseful account of her life and her internal struggle with her Muslim faith, she discusses how these views were shaped by her experiences amid the political chaos of Somalia and other African nations, where she was subjected to genital mutilation and later forced into an unwanted marriage. While in transit to her husband in Canada, she decided to seek asylum in the Netherlands, where she marveled at the polite policemen and government bureaucrats. Ali is up-front about having lied about her background in order to obtain her citizenship, which led to further controversy in early 2006, when an immigration official sought to deport her and triggered the collapse of the Dutch coalition government. Apart from feelings of guilt over van Gogh's death, her voice is forceful and unbowed—like Irshad Manji, she delivers a powerful feminist critique of Islam informed by a genuine understanding of the religion.

Last edited by Liberty; 08-11-2007 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:31 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Sounds like an interesting read!
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There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence.
Old 08-12-2007, 08:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Do you think it is something I can check out at the library?
Old 08-14-2007, 08:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Do you think it is something I can check out at the library?

lol
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There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence.
Old 08-15-2007, 03:28 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Well Al Hirsi has certainly been in the thick of european immigration and integration politics for many years. But again some reservations must be kept.

Firstly the genital mutilation she suffered ( which probably accounts for the greater part of her antipathy against Islam ) is a cultural tradition. Female genital mutilation is neither condoned, promoted or practiced in most of the muslim world. It is however a common practice in Somalia even among non-muslims there.
Of course as is typical, local customs are given "divine justification" by the local mullahs, who falsely call the practice "islamic". No such actions are promoted by the quran or the hadith.
Just as the Pushtun infer from their interpretation of the Quran and the hadith that women are to be kept locked up and uneducated ( whereas Punjabis do NOT ), so too do the conservative elements of somalia infer from the quran and hadith that female genital mutilation is accepted and promoted ( whereas the VAST MAJORITY of muslims completely disagree with it).

Anyhow while her experiences are true and unembellished, they do not prove a causal link between Islam as a theology and her awful experience. Rather she clearly illustrates a causal link between local culture and the integration of local customs and practices imposed by local imams into Islamic theology. Like i said, the mutilation she has suffered is an old pre-islamic somalian tradition practiced by non-muslims also. Just because in her case this violation was OKed by a muslim, does not mean that the approval comes from islamic theology. The distinction is important to make because onemust always know what the problem is.

The problem facing Somali women is that their indigenous tradition demands such mutilation. The only way this problem can be combatted is if conditions return to some level of normalcy in Somalia and that a women's empowerment campaign is launched so they become aware of their rights as idividuals. I can assure you that muslim clergy from elsewhere will quite willingly condemn and oppose this awful tradition.

As always i must again end with the fact that Islam is divided into 73 different sects and innumerable sub-sects and groups. the inhuman practices conducted in the name of "islam" are generally local customs or traditions incorporated into the main body of theology and re-launched as "islam".

This unfortunately leads to a great deal of confusion both within various muslim communities as well as the world as a whole.
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Old 08-15-2007, 09:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
Well Al Hirsi has certainly been in the thick of european immigration and integration politics for many years. But again some reservations must be kept.

Firstly the genital mutilation she suffered ( which probably accounts for the greater part of her antipathy against Islam ) is a cultural tradition. Female genital mutilation is neither condoned, promoted or practiced in most of the muslim world. It is however a common practice in Somalia even among non-muslims there.
Of course as is typical, local customs are given "divine justification" by the local mullahs, who falsely call the practice "islamic". No such actions are promoted by the quran or the hadith.
Just as the Pushtun infer from their interpretation of the Quran and the hadith that women are to be kept locked up and uneducated ( whereas Punjabis do NOT ), so too do the conservative elements of somalia infer from the quran and hadith that female genital mutilation is accepted and promoted ( whereas the VAST MAJORITY of muslims completely disagree with it).

Anyhow while her experiences are true and unembellished, they do not prove a causal link between Islam as a theology and her awful experience. Rather she clearly illustrates a causal link between local culture and the integration of local customs and practices imposed by local imams into Islamic theology. Like i said, the mutilation she has suffered is an old pre-islamic somalian tradition practiced by non-muslims also. Just because in her case this violation was OKed by a muslim, does not mean that the approval comes from islamic theology. The distinction is important to make because onemust always know what the problem is.

The problem facing Somali women is that their indigenous tradition demands such mutilation. The only way this problem can be combatted is if conditions return to some level of normalcy in Somalia and that a women's empowerment campaign is launched so they become aware of their rights as idividuals. I can assure you that muslim clergy from elsewhere will quite willingly condemn and oppose this awful tradition.

As always i must again end with the fact that Islam is divided into 73 different sects and innumerable sub-sects and groups. the inhuman practices conducted in the name of "islam" are generally local customs or traditions incorporated into the main body of theology and re-launched as "islam".

This unfortunately leads to a great deal of confusion both within various muslim communities as well as the world as a whole.
You are right and not only sects but clans...... My GGGG Grandfather was related to your GGGG Grandfather and so you're in the same clan. If someont's past relative did something bad to someone else's past relative, they people on earth today that are related are expected to get back at them and "save face" This is something I've read in other books not Ali's. The Arab Mind tells about this "saving face" stuff.

I know (or at least Ali doesn't make it seem this is a Muslim thing) it's more a cultural thing.

Her book is completely honest from what I can tell.
Old 08-20-2007, 10:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Do you think it is something I can check out at the library?


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Old 08-29-2007, 08:41 PM   #8 (permalink)
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From what I have read, the severe treatment of some Islamic women is more of a cultural tradition based on ancient tribal customs, rather than having anything to do with the religion itself, which speaks out against the mistreatment of women.
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Old 08-30-2007, 12:11 AM   #9 (permalink)
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From what I have read, the severe treatment of some Islamic women is more of a cultural tradition based on ancient tribal customs, rather than having anything to do with the religion itself, which speaks out against the mistreatment of women.
That is absolutely correct. Unfortunately the lines between religious edict and cultural tradition are always blurred. Even muslims often have difficulty in separating what their religion expects of them and what their culture expects of them.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:52 AM   #10 (permalink)
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That is absolutely correct. Unfortunately the lines between religious edict and cultural tradition are always blurred. Even muslims often have difficulty in separating what their religion expects of them and what their culture expects of them.

Not to mention, those that are unknowledgeable about either the religious aspects of Muslims and the society traditions of the areas the Muslims live in that are on polar opposites...Not realizing, cause they either aren't Muslim or know those individuals' cultural traditions that are in conflict with religious teachings...Inadvertly confuse and combine the two themselves and perpetuate/embrace even more false information about the religious practice through that unknowledgeable position the non-muslim is getting their 'information' from.
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