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Gay Marriage Debate and defend your political beliefs as to whether or not marriage should be only defined as a union between a man and a woman.

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Old 08-29-2007, 02:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Gay Unions Sanctioned in Medieval Europe
I'm just going to let this article stand for itself... I'll join in if it touches off a discussion.

=====================

Civil unions between male couples existed around 600 years ago in medieval Europe, a historian now says.

Historical evidence, including legal documents and gravesites, can be interpreted as supporting the prevalence of homosexual relationships hundreds of years ago, said Allan Tulchin of Shippensburg University in Pennsylvania.

If accurate, the results indicate socially sanctioned same-sex unions are nothing new, nor were they taboo in the past.

“Western family structures have been much more varied than many people today seem to realize," Tulchin writes in the September issue of the Journal of Modern History. "And Western legal systems have in the past made provisions for a variety of household structures.”

For example, he found legal contracts from late medieval France that referred to the term "affrèrement," roughly translated as brotherment. Similar contracts existed elsewhere in Mediterranean Europe, Tulchin said.

In the contract, the "brothers" pledged to live together sharing "un pain, un vin, et une bourse," (that's French for one bread, one wine and one purse).

The "one purse" referred to the idea that all of the couple's goods became joint property. Like marriage contracts, the "brotherments" had to be sworn before a notary and witnesses, Tulchin explained.

The same type of legal contract of the time also could provide the foundation for a variety of non-nuclear households, including arrangements in which two or more biological brothers inherited the family home from their parents and would continue to live together, Tulchin said.

But non-relatives also used the contracts. In cases that involved single, unrelated men, Tulchin argues, these contracts provide “considerable evidence that the affrèrés were using affrèrements to formalize same-sex loving relationships."

The ins-and-outs of the medieval relationships are tricky at best to figure out.

"I suspect that some of these relationships were sexual, while others may not have been," Tulchin said. "It is impossible to prove either way and probably also somewhat irrelevant to understanding their way of thinking. They loved each other, and the community accepted that.”

Gay Unions Sanctioned in Medieval Europe - Yahoo! News
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Use of the Rack Sanctioned in Medieval Europe
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Originally Posted by forester814 View Post
The Medieval period of the Middle Ages was violent, and blood thirsty. In these barbarous times the cruel and pitiless torturers were induced to inflict the horrors of tortures, including the Rack, on prisoners by Stretching and Dislocation. Torture methods, devices and instruments were used to inflict the deliberate, systematic, cruel and wanton infliction of physical and mental suffering.

There were no laws or rules to protect the treatment of prisoners who faced torture, such as the Rack by Stretching and Dislocation.


Torture was seen as a totally legitimate means for justice to extract confessions, obtain the names of accomplices, obtain testimonies or confessions.

The Rack Torture


I don't think we want to turn back the clock.

Isn't change a good thing?



Old 08-29-2007, 02:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Kinda reminds me of another article, discussing this very topic...

CHRISTIANGAYS.COM: When Marriage Between Gays Was a Rite
Old 08-29-2007, 02:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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and, yet, there are so many people who talk about the way "things have always been"

seems it only is so when it supports their opinions
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Conservatism: Self-centered mean-spiritedness fueled by ignorance and misguided self-importance.

Bigotry is a social disease.

Legalized same-sex marriage almost certainly benefits those same-sex couples who choose to marry, as well as the children being raised in those homes. - David Blankenhorn is president of the New York-based Institute for American Values and the author of "The Future of Marriage."
Old 08-29-2007, 03:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
and, yet, there are so many people who talk about the way "things have always been"

seems it only is so when it supports their opinions
There simply isn't any such thing as 'things have always been', in regards to the meanings of marriage. The meanings of marriage, just like everything else concerning human rights and laws, has changed numerous times over the centuries. And will continue to change, to reflect the changes in our societies and accomodate those changes in perspectives and purposes.

It's called progression and growth of society. And if it didn't change over time, we'd still be living in caves and drawing on the walls of those caves.

Half the problem is, that those saying that 'it's always been like this/that' is the simple fact they're scared of change. Especially any type of change they feel will mess with what they feel they are only entitled in having, or those that share their limited and in-the-box perceptions of how they want things to be.
Old 08-29-2007, 03:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer View Post
Kinda reminds me of another article, discussing this very topic...

CHRISTIANGAYS.COM: When Marriage Between Gays Was a Rite
Great article, Ali... thanks!
Old 08-29-2007, 03:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer View Post
Kinda reminds me of another article, discussing this very topic...

CHRISTIANGAYS.COM: When Marriage Between Gays Was a Rite
Very good, sweetheart. I no doubt know of the gay men in my church that log onto this website.
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105
Old 08-29-2007, 03:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forester814 View Post
Great article, Ali... thanks!
Hey, that's one link I've made sure I never lose...It comes in so handy, don't you think? ROTFLMAOL!!!
Old 08-29-2007, 03:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forester814 View Post
I'm just going to let this article stand for itself... I'll join in if it touches off a discussion.

=====================

Civil unions between male couples existed around 600 years ago in medieval Europe, a historian now says.

Historical evidence, including legal documents and gravesites, can be interpreted as supporting the prevalence of homosexual relationships hundreds of years ago, said Allan Tulchin of Shippensburg University in Pennsylvania.

If accurate, the results indicate socially sanctioned same-sex unions are nothing new, nor were they taboo in the past.

“Western family structures have been much more varied than many people today seem to realize," Tulchin writes in the September issue of the Journal of Modern History. "And Western legal systems have in the past made provisions for a variety of household structures.”

For example, he found legal contracts from late medieval France that referred to the term "affrèrement," roughly translated as brotherment. Similar contracts existed elsewhere in Mediterranean Europe, Tulchin said.

In the contract, the "brothers" pledged to live together sharing "un pain, un vin, et une bourse," (that's French for one bread, one wine and one purse).

The "one purse" referred to the idea that all of the couple's goods became joint property. Like marriage contracts, the "brotherments" had to be sworn before a notary and witnesses, Tulchin explained.

The same type of legal contract of the time also could provide the foundation for a variety of non-nuclear households, including arrangements in which two or more biological brothers inherited the family home from their parents and would continue to live together, Tulchin said.

But non-relatives also used the contracts. In cases that involved single, unrelated men, Tulchin argues, these contracts provide “considerable evidence that the affrèrés were using affrèrements to formalize same-sex loving relationships."

The ins-and-outs of the medieval relationships are tricky at best to figure out.

"I suspect that some of these relationships were sexual, while others may not have been," Tulchin said. "It is impossible to prove either way and probably also somewhat irrelevant to understanding their way of thinking. They loved each other, and the community accepted that.”

Gay Unions Sanctioned in Medieval Europe - Yahoo! News
It also sanctioned putting women to the stake for having sex outside of marriage calling them witches because they clearly must of put a spell on the man involved.

And to this day 2 men can create a contract between each other that allows them to split property and so forth. But its not marriage either. Don't get me wrong I think gay people should be able to get divorced just like everyone else which is what marriage really leads to but all this article means is that we need to update our concepts of contract if they haven't changed since medievil times.
Old 08-29-2007, 03:45 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer View Post
There simply isn't any such thing as 'things have always been', in regards to the meanings of marriage. The meanings of marriage, just like everything else concerning human rights and laws, has changed numerous times over the centuries. And will continue to change, to reflect the changes in our societies and accomodate those changes in perspectives and purposes.

It's called progression and growth of society. And if it didn't change over time, we'd still be living in caves and drawing on the walls of those caves.

Half the problem is, that those saying that 'it's always been like this/that' is the simple fact they're scared of change. Especially any type of change they feel will mess with what they feel they are only entitled in having, or those that share their limited and in-the-box perceptions of how they want things to be.
How about if we change to driving on the left in America?

Would you welcome that?

Surely you aren't scared of change?

The reality is nobody really wants change for the sake of change.

They use fear of change as a bogus argument for changing to something THEY happen to prefer.
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