Jzyehoshua

Homosexuals already have the right to live as they please in the privacy of their own homes. What rights are they seeking? They seek the right to force us as a nation to change what we view as moral and conscionable in marriage.

Now, I am all for personal rights. However, rights once they enter the public domain and begin affecting others become questionable as to whether or not they should be rights. A person's right to throw a punch should stop where another's nose begins.

For example, you have a right to look at dirty magazines, but you don't have a right to show them to someone else's kids. You have a right to hit a punching bag, but you don't have a right to hit someone else. You have a right to freedom of speech, but you can't go around swearing at others in public.

Once something so enters the public domain it affects everyone and thus should be questioned. Should we so redefine marriage? It is not us who have targeted homosexuals, but they who are seeking to change our nation's age-old definition of marriage.

I will say this: the homosexual lifestyle is not the only thing condemned sexually in the Bible. Bestiality, premarital sex, adultery, divorce... all are condemned in the Bible. I don't believe in singling out homosexuals but want to see the "irreconcilable differences" stuff eliminated from courts so that marriage can actually mean something once again. I also believe steps should be taken so school-children can't happen across pornography on school computers.

I don't believe, however, in regulating people's personal lifestyles. That's not the reason I oppose homosexual marriage. God gave everyone free will, who am I to take theirs away? I only believe in regulating the actions of others once their actions infringe upon the rights of others. I oppose homosexual marriage on the grounds that it seeks to force the entire nation to change the definition of marriage and morality.

I personally disagree with that definition, so I will vote accordingly. If you agree with it, I fully expect you to vote accordingly. I'm not trying to persuade anyone here that homosexuality is wrong, but rather saying why I oppose homosexuality and asserting my right, like yours, to vote according to the dictates of my conscience.

pensacola_niceman

Very nice. You want laws to be passed so you don't have to be subjected to second-hand smoke (of which laws already exist). Now you're all on about homosexual marriage, what the Bible says, and morality. Did it ever occur to you that this country's rule of law was not meant to conform to your personal definition of morality? Do you also know that these topics you bring up have been beaten to death already on this forum? Do you also know that you sound like a fucking idiot on every post you've made here so far?

fxashun

I know you aren't trying to say that sounding like a fucking idiot isn't allowed on this forum. There would be very few posts from any of us.

I strongly oppose the "don't sound like a fucking idiot" rule that you are advocating.

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bfrazz1

It seems to me that the Founding Fathers of this country were specifically trying to protect the rights of those who had unpopular opinions and beliefs. They tried especially hard to limit the influence of religion on lawmaking, going to extraordinary lengths to prevent any religious viewpoint from being fostered upon any particular individual or group. It strikes me that most fervent dissent regarding gay marriage comes from folks who have a strong dogmatic foundation, usually in Christian theology.

Having spent a good portion of my life in the Arts, I have developed friendships with a number of gay people and even went into a business partnership with a lesbian at one point. As long as the members of the gay community respected my heterosexuality, I respected their homosexuality. What they did behind closed doors mattered not and I see no reason why those in committed relationships should not enjoy the advantages or endure the hardships inherent in a legally recognized union like marriage. When my gay business partner cheated on her supposed life-mate I found it just as repulsive as when this kind of thing is done by my heterosexual acquaintances, just as the strong points of their relationship were viewed as positive and uplifting.

I often wonder, why are the anti-gay marriage people are so intolerant and afraid? The Christian Rightists are appalled when someone goes negative about them, yet they seem to be the first people to find others intolerable and appalling. Yet isn't this exactly the opposite of the teachings of Christ?

Jzyehoshua

But I didn't make this post based on my personal definition of morality, did I? I pointed out that all U.S. laws have as their basis of reason and authority the regulation of others so that they don't infringe upon the rights of their fellow men.

It's not a matter of personal opinion but of reason anyone should be able to see that a person's rights shouldn't include the right to harm other people. Now, I didn't make the case that homosexuality was wrong here aside from mentioning in passing that the Bible says so, I simply pointed out that the reason it's controversial is because it could involve stepping on the rights of a nation, and that because of that the nation should decide whether or not to change its definition of what marriage is.

And no, I regret to inform you that I was unaware I sounded like that. Perhaps if you insult me a few more times it will start to sink in.

Jzyehoshua

It's a good point about the founding fathers and religion, but I don't think it was just to protect against religion but to protect religion. "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Too often it seems that second part is forgotten, and people act like Congress should forbid religion from having anything to do with politics. It is of course absurd that one's religion shouldn't influence their political beliefs. The word for one whose belief does not extend to all aspects of their life is 'hypocrite.'

There can be no establishment made of religion itself for then other religions would be discriminated against, but of course people should vote and act politically according to their religious views and beliefs. Lincoln, Washington, Ulysses S. Grant, and John Adams were several who clearly stated their religious convictions and how their political behaviors were influenced by them.

It is another good point about whether Christians are intolerant in claiming there is such a thing as absolute right and wrong, and one I intend to address. However, Jesus Himself did not claim to be tolerant. He was always telling people about morality and that they needed to repent or else perish.

He called the Pharisees hypocrites. He didn't excuse the lifestyle of the adulteress, He forgave her and told her to "go and sin no more." He clearly stated that divorce is wrong for any reason other than adultery, and repeated the 10 commandments as God's moral standard.

The wrong comes not in saying lifestyles are wrong, but in using that to single out others as more evil, rather than pointing out we are all equally guilty before God. However, this issue is not about saying homosexuals are any worse than anyone else, but about simply asserting a moral definition of marriage for our nation.

To put it simply, there is a difference between intolerant of PEOPLE and of being intolerant of EVIL as a whole. There is a difference between condemning someone and just saying there is absolute right and wrong.

Jesus and the Bible clearly say some things are right and some are wrong. We all form are own ideas and opinions about what's right and wrong. It's not the judgment of what's right and wrong, but judging others as a judge, to say they are worse than other people so as to put them down and condemn them.

There's an excellent article that I like on the subject.

As quoted from:

Power to Change » Do all religions lead to God?

pensacola_niceman

OK, I think I owe you an apology. Your posts actually indicate that you are a very intelligent and educated person. I regret welcoming to the board in such an uncivilized manner.

I know it's not much of an excuse, but I am currently in Iraq and my days are stressful. Sometimes it shows up on this board.

pensacola_niceman

I think I was wrong to say that in the first place. I've already posted an apology.

tristanrobin

Of course they did

That's why all this "popularity" voting on the rights of gay people is so incredibly offensive and unAmerican.

the rest of your post was equally spot on target

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"know this is EXACTLY why people think you shouldnt have equal rights" 2/11/08 Grace

CrazyFlamingos

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"I will hold up America to the lightning scorn of moral indignation. In doing this I shall feel myself discharging the duty of a true patriot; for he is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." -- Frederick Douglass