Conservatism and Christianity?

Jzyehoshua · 02-27-2008, 12:26 PM

I'm not convinced conservatism, so often associated with Christianity, has lost its home with the Republican Party. I just think conservatism was ill-defined to begin with, and what it stands for is a group of oft-conflicting principles.

I can see how a Christian can oppose abortion, gay marriage and embryonic stem-cell research. But how can a Christian support the death penalty? Or war-mongering? Or taking from the poor to give to the rich (something today's tax cuts can produce)? Or treating immigrants, regardless of legal status, as subhuman enemies? Or not seeking to provide universal health care (should such an option ever be feasibly available to us) to take care of our nation's weakest and poorest?

As is often the case, I find the truth is somewhere in between. It's almost like the Democrats are more right on the economic issues and Republicans more so on the moral issues.

And regardless of which issues are right, a very present danger I see is that all of these issues are being grouped together as conservative or liberal, Democratic or Republican, patriotic or unpatriotic. It's as if thinking for yourself on them means to deny the whole party, even if it only results in differing on one issue.

I think people need to stop voting as conservative or liberal and start thinking for themselves. Maybe they reach the same conclusions as either party, and that's fine.

What is conservative? Sticking to old traditions? Sometimes change is needed for better efficiency or progress. What does liberal mean? Changing from old traditions? Change for the sake of change can be a bad thing.

Neither one is always right. People need to think through the issues for themselves, and not just vote the way their ancestors did. There is never an excuse for omitting the thought process from our voting.

Grace · 02-27-2008, 12:47 PM

Well we wonder how liberals can be for abortion, but against the death penalty. At least one of them did something to deserve death. I also wonder why the word war mongers?? War has been brought to us, just cause we choose to engage the enemy, rather than to lay down to it, doesnt make us war mongers. And as far as immigration, it has EVERYTHING to do with legal status. No one has a problem with people legaly entering the country, and paying there taxes. Its the folks from places like Mexico, who run up the cost of health care, who take much needed time in our childrens class rooms, cause they cant speak english that is the problem. NTM the ever increasing crime rates we have from illegals.

Jzyehoshua · 02-27-2008, 01:04 PM

Thanks for the response.

As far as Afghanistan, responding to the terrorist attacks on 9/11 didn't make us warmongers. But Iraq? The whole world despises us for how we handled that. We went in there based on lies and faulty intelligence. We still have no proof Saddam had any ties to Al Qaeda. If anything, it appears his regime despised them and was a force holding them at bay. And WOMD? There were none. Our leaders lied to the American people to get them into the war, and that is inexcusable no matter what the justification. Bush could've at least said, "We think Saddam Hussein is a bad, bad man who treats his people horribly, so even though we put him in power we're going to attack him and his nation at the risk of killing thousands of innocent civilians so we can put him to death."

As far as the immigrants, the problem is... some shouldn't be immigrants. During the Great Depression, a lot of Mexican-Americans were forcibly deported to free up jobs for Caucasians. Ironically it is now their children who are forced to hide out because they lack citizenship. Furthermore, a good chunk of Southern USA was stolen from Mexico during the Mexican-American war in what Lincoln and others called horribly unjust.

As far as the crime rate associated with illegal immigrants, that is a clear problem. I would like to see them given a path to citizenship that deals with the problem via means of a probationary period where crimes at a certain level would be punishable by deportation, extended sentences, or military service. Furthermore, another possibility would be the earning of citizenship for one and one's immediate family via military service.

CrazyFlamingos · 02-27-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jzyehoshua

As far as the immigrants, the problem is... some shouldn't be immigrants. During the Great Depression, a lot of Mexican-Americans were forcibly deported to free up jobs for Caucasians. Ironically it is now their children who are forced to hide out because they lack citizenship.

That is interesting. I knew some of them had been forced into Mexico at earlier dates. I once knew a guy whose grandparents "illegally immigrated" back to tribal lands in New Mexico that had been held by his ancestors for hundreds of years until the late 19th century. Though they settled a stones throw from their ancestral burial grounds, they were never U.S. citizens because the U.S. Army had herded their grandparents into Mexico two generations earlier. If I think of the name of the tribe I will post a link to their history. It is interesting reading.

It never ceases to amaze me the numerous and creative ways that the U.S. government found to screw American Natives. Imagine being driven off your own land and summarily declared an alien!

Do you have a link to the Depression era deportations info?

Jzyehoshua · 02-27-2008, 02:07 PM

Sure, here's some links:

1930s Mexican Deportation: Educator brings attention to historic period and its affect on her family

The Great Depression

The Emergence of Unconstitutional Deportation and Repatriation of Mexicans and Mexican Americans as a Public Issue -- Balderrama 2005 (93): 107 -- Radical History Review

Just do a search for
"Great Depression" deportation
and you should find plenty of other results as well.

garysher · 02-27-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

Well we wonder how liberals can be for abortion, but against the death penalty. At least one of them did something to deserve death. I also wonder why the word war mongers?? War has been brought to us, just cause we choose to engage the enemy, rather than to lay down to it, doesnt make us war mongers. And as far as immigration, it has EVERYTHING to do with legal status. No one has a problem with people legaly entering the country, and paying there taxes. Its the folks from places like Mexico, who run up the cost of health care, who take much needed time in our childrens class rooms, cause they cant speak english that is the problem. NTM the ever increasing crime rates we have from illegals.

Grace I think JZ has a good point.

Whenever I listen to Christian talk radio it's hard to distinguish it from right-wing wacko shows like Rush or O'Reilly.

I agree there have to be immigration laws and they need to be enforced, but these Christians show such bitterness and resentment against illegal immigrants. Not all of them are criminals or gang members, they are mostly hard working people trying to feed their families.

Aren't we all God's children?

And how can Christians oppose universal health care? I hear such nonsense about why it's a bad idea, but surely Christians want all their fellow citizens to have access to health care?

Same with the death penalty. Shouldn't Christians believe that only God gives life and only God should take it away?

highway80west · 02-27-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos

That is interesting. I knew some of them had been forced into Mexico at earlier dates. I once knew a guy whose grandparents "illegally immigrated" back to tribal lands in New Mexico that had been held by his ancestors for hundreds of years until the late 19th century. Though they settled a stones throw from their ancestral burial grounds, they were never U.S. citizens because the U.S. Army had herded their grandparents into Mexico two generations earlier. If I think of the name of the tribe I will post a link to their history. It is interesting reading.

It never ceases to amaze me the numerous and creative ways that the U.S. government found to screw American Natives. Imagine being driven off your own land and summarily declared an alien!

Do you have a link to the Depression era deportations info?

Indian Tribes of New Mexico

NEW MEXICO Indian tribes: BIA contact info, web links

The only tribes I know of is the Navahos, Apaches, Utes, to name a few. The links above might help.

Jzyehoshua · 02-27-2008, 02:19 PM

Ironically, 1-2 million hispanics were illegally deported into Mexico and now their children are attacked for trying to "illegally" return.

Ironically the lands most are trying to return to were originally stolen from Mexico. The Mexican-American War started because Mexico had so much extra land in what we now know as Texas that it opened its borders to all those who wished for free land to settle. Americans swarmed in by the thousands, along with their slaves. But when Mexico a few years later outlawed slavery the angry slaveholders petitioned the American government, saying they wanted to cede. The government knew what was going on but went along with it, some because of "manifest destiny" and some because they were Southerners who wanted more southern slave states at a time when the free were outnumbering the slave and thus a danger to their institution of slavery.

Former presidents Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, and John Quincy Adams were among those who opposed the war, as well as some writer guy named Henry David Thoreau that you might have heard of.

Mexican-American War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The History Guy: The U.S.-Mexican War (1846-184

Grace · 02-28-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Grace I think JZ has a good point.

Whenever I listen to Christian talk radio it's hard to distinguish it from right-wing wacko shows like Rush or O'Reilly.

You are listening to the wrong Christains then brother.

Quote:

I agree there have to be immigration laws and they need to be enforced,

There is th eproblem, these laws are not being enforced, and its hurting our country.

Quote:

but these Christians show such bitterness and resentment against illegal immigrants. Not all of them are criminals or gang members, they are mostly hard working people trying to feed their families.

I dont blame anyone for wanting to feed there family's. However since they are here illegaly they dont pay taxes like the rest of us, putting a strain on our finances, while recieving free medical care at the same time. That isnt fair to the American people. And you are right, they are not all criminals, but a good % of them are, and are filling up our Jails, and murdering and stealing from our people. Why should that be tolerated?? Especialy when we suposedly have laws in place to protect us from such things.

Quote:

Aren't we all God's children?

We arent asking them for any more than what is expected of us.

Quote:

And how can Christians oppose universal health care? I hear such nonsense about why it's a bad idea, but surely Christians want all their fellow citizens to have access to health care?

Of course we want everyone to have health care, but not at the expence of the middle class, which is what it amounts to. Universal health care sounds great, till someone has to flip the bill for it. I can hardly afford health care for my family, why should I be expected to pay for others as well??

Quote:

Same with the death penalty. Shouldn't Christians believe that only God gives life and only God should take it away?

God gave man the right to govern and make our own laws. I have no problem taking the life of someone who would take the lifes of others. It is justice

waitingtables · 02-28-2008, 09:14 AM

I'm hopeful that I'll never face Grace's version of "Christian" justice.

Quote:

And you are right, they are not all criminals, but a good % of them are, and are filling up our Jails, and murdering and stealing from our people. Why should that be tolerated?? Especialy when we suposedly have laws in place to protect us from such things.

A good percentage, huh? And where are you getting your statistics from? And you have the gaul to call ME a hypocrite? What a convenient Christianity this is.