Don't mean to offend anybody's sensibilities, but i'm a muslim and i am so because i believe it is the most rational of religions on the planet.

Since thankfully man is a rational creature by nature i believe that in the end all humans will call them selves muslim.

Sort of like a takeover of the world except it will be spread by free thinking and free speech. Not by bloodshed and terrorism.

I brought up this thread since i figure a theological discussion could be fun

Any takers?

Oh, so it was probably you who said awhile ago that you think all people are Muslims and some just don't know it yet (I had been thinking that was intangible child).

I think people generally do best by staying with the one they were brought up in, because in a certain sense all religions are like different oysters that contain the same jewel.
Or,
as someone else has said in maybe different words... all of them are like fingers pointing at the same thing, and what we want to do is look where the finger is pointing, instead of identifying too profoundly with the finger itself.

Notice I wrote "generally".
There are surely exceptions to this, where people change from one to another that suits their temperament way better.
Of course,
what if a person is brought up with no religion?
Then probably the best one for that person is the simplest.

I think that's a brilliant analogy of the situation in the world today. People tend to indentify with the group rather than the message.

My contention however is that the islamic creed,while rife with contradictions in its practice has no doubts or clashes with rationality in the koran. The koran points straight to the bullseye, while other religous texts and philosophies are off the mark to a greater or lesses degree.

I have to admit, i was hoping somebody would start blasting Islam. That would give me an opportunity to respond to some incorrect assumptions many people have about the religion.

damn you civilized nature.. where's jefferson, chachynga and the likes when you need them?

I'm sure they will be happy to oblige you very soon !

What do you think of the Baha'u'la?
(I am pretty sure I misspelled that).
Because I think he was trying to utilize that instinct for group identification by pronouncing everyone's religion as true.
The thing about religions though:

They always seem to crystalize into minutiae.
For example, I noticed that his religion, the Baha'i, insists that a person be buried no more than one hour from where they died.
Cui bono?
Why on earth?
My guess is that this is one of the many accretions that seem to get added on in ensuing years.

Here's Robert Hunter's view of it (sung by the Grateful Dead):

There comes a redeemer
and he slowly too fades away
There follows a wagon behind him
that's loaded with clay
and the seeds that were silent
all burst into bloom and decay
The night comes so quiet
and it's close on the heels of the day

Well, gotta log off now.
Hope you get a good fight tomorrow from lots of people

Good night !

When was the last time Muslims took over ANYTHING peacefully?

Seriously?

People whose religion causes them to riot, torch cities and call for beheadings - all because of some cartoons - cannot really call themselves "rational".

I am fully aware of that. Most muslim countries ARE primitive in that way. However the important thing is to distinguish the people who commit horrible acts in the name of islam and islam itself.

While most christian nations have reached further in their development ( don't forget that Islam is 600 years younger than christianity) ALL denominations of christianity have some sort of violence in their past.

It was a function of the societies of the time that violence could be commited in the name of christianity e.g the spanish inquisition and the crusades. While they are despicable acts committed in the name of christianity you will agree that most people today realize that these acts are not sanctioned by the ideology of christianity itself.

Same thing with Islam. The bearded crazies are not representative of the true message of Islam.

What stopped the violence committed by the church was greater awareness, education and a better life. This too shall be the case with the muslims.

By taking over you don't understand the friendly nature of it. Islam will CONVINCE everybody because it will speak to their hearts. A muslim who actually hasn't arrived to the conclusion of becoming a muslim on their own, can not be a muslim. Basically a person has to want to. And eventually people will WANT to.

Actually, I'm quite well studied in Islam.

I am also quite well studied in Christianity - and know for a fact that The Crusades were a RESPONSE/REACTION to Muslim aggression from the south. A STUPID response/reaction, but even so...

And I do NOT believe that "eventually people will WANT to."

Now... rather than be a smart alec (which is, honestly, 90% of what I do on this site anyway), I would like to ask you some serious questions about Islam that do honestly trouble me a great deal.

1. History reveals that Mohammed himself was a violent man - leading his army to attack and plunder MANY cities, including Mecca itself. How can such a violent man begin what is supposed to be such a "peaceful" religion?

2. We keep hearing that "true Islam" is such a peaceful religion. However, EVERY country that is a Muslim theocracy is a HORRIBLE place - replete with civil rights abuses and overwhelming poverty. In fact, were it not for western reliance on OPEC oil, it seems to me that ALL Muslim countries would live in abject poverty.

Why is this?

Sweet! these are the types of things i was lookin for.

1) Mohammad being a violent man:
I can understand why people might assume that he was a violent man, considering the nuts who roam around killing in his name. However i can tell you that history does not reveal anything violent about this man. During his time he fought 3 wars. All three of them defensive wars where the citizens of Mecca attacked Mohammad and his followers during his exile in Madina ( War of Badr, war of Uhud and the war of Khandaq). That is where the term jihad was coined. It means a defensive war. The only time he was involved in conquering a city was when he conquered Mecca. THat conquest too was due to a break of a treaty by the people of mecca (treaty of hudabia) and bloodless.
This is a misunderstanding that i would sincerely advise you to look up from any impartial historical source. It is integral to understand that none of Mohammads actions ever condoned the type of violence perpetrated by people in his name nowadays. The reason it is so important is because we as muslims can not claim to be a religion of peace unless it is established that the man to whom the religion was revealed was a peaceful man.

2) Islam as a peaceful religion:
You are right in saying that most muslim countries in the world are primitive in the least and have a huge number of human rights violations. I can only tell you from living in a muslim country myself that these violations are a function of the society, rather than the state religion. Poverty, illiteracy, scarcity of resources, rampant corruption, exploitation of the weak and a host of other things are a result of our level of development. Don't forget that Europe and the US also have gone through periods with the same sort of problems.
The problem is not the ideology. The problems are social problems that every nation experiences regardless of ideology.

I hope this addresses your concerns. Keep 'em comin'