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World History Debate and discuss the history in politics to better understand the current geopolitical structure.

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Old 07-20-2006, 10:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
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How Long Do We Have?

How Long Do We Have?


About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution,
Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of
Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some
2,000 years prior:



"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist

as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to

exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves

generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the

majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most

benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every

democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is

always followed by a dictatorshi."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the

beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200

years, these nations always progressed through the following

sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependece;
8. From dependence back into bondage "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul,
Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000
Presidential election:

1. Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush: 143
million;

2. Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000; Bush: 2,427,000;
3. States won by: Gore: 19 Bush: 29
4. Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2
Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won
was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great
country.

Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency & apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake,
knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

Larry J Ward
9683 Fallbrook Drive
Dallas, TX 75243-6151
214-349-6065
via email



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Old 07-21-2006, 05:26 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Man. And I just thought I got Urban Legend crap in my e-mail-box...

==============================================

Origins: The
piece quoted above has been circulating on the Internet since shortly after the November 2000 presidential election. We haven't examined it ourselves yet, but Mike Powell of Kennewick, Washington, was kind enough to send us his analysis, which we're happy to include here.

1. The population of the counties and square miles of area won by each Bush and Gore appear to be accurate. They are consistent with the election-result map published by USA Today on 20 November 2000.

2. The number of states won by each candidate is wrong, but the numbers given (29 and 19) imply this piece was written before the results of the Florida and New Mexico vote-counts were determined. The final tallies were 30 states for Bush and 20 for Gore.

3. The quote from "Alexander Tyler" is very likely fictitious. His name was actually "Lord Woodhouselee, Alexander Fraser Tytler," and he was a Scottish historian/professor who wrote several books in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

However, there is no record of The Fall of the Athenian Republic or The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic in the Library of Congress, which has several other titles by Tytler. This quote has also been cited as being from Tytler's Universal History or from his Elements of General History, Ancient and Modern, books that do exist. These books seem the most likely source of the quote, as they contain extensive discussions of the political systems in historic civilizations, including Athens. Universal History was published after, and based upon, Elements of General History, which was a collection of Professor Tytler's lecture notes.

Tytler's book, Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century, is available for viewing and searching on-line. The complete text was searched for each of the following phrases:
Athenian Republic
democracy
generous gifts
public treasury
loose fiscal
fiscal
bondage
200 years
two hundred years
spiritual faith
In no case was text identified that was remotely similar in words or intent to the alleged Tytler quote.

4. Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him. Professor Olson was contacted (by me) via e-mail, and he confirmed that he had no authorship or involvement in this matter. And, as Fayette Citizen editor Dave Hamrick wrote back in January 2001:

I really enjoyed one recent message that was circulated extremely widely, at least among conservatives. It gave several interesting "facts" supposedly compiled by statisticians and political scientists about the counties across the nation that voted for George Bush and the ones that voted for Al Gore in the recent election.

Supposedly, the people in the counties for Bush had more education, more income, ad infinitum, than the counties for Gore.

I didn't have time to check them all out, but I was curious about one item in particular... the contention that the murder rate in the Gore counties was about a billion times higher than in the Bush counties.

This was attributed to a Professor Joseph Olson at the Hamline University School of Law. I never heard of such a university, but went online and found it. And Prof. Olson does exist.

"Now I'm getting somewhere," I thought.

But in response to my e-mail, Olson said the "research" was attributed to him erroneously. He said it came from a Sheriff Jay Printz in Montana. I e-mailed Sheriff Printz, and guess what? He didn't do the research either, and didn't remember who had e-mailed it to him.

In other words, he got the same legend e-mailed to him and passed it on to Olson without checking it out, and when Olson passed it on, someone thought it sounded better if a law professor had done the research, and so it grew.

Who knows where it originally came from, but it's just not true.
5. The county-by-county murder-rate comparison presented in this piece is wrong.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice (DoJ), in the year 2000 the national murder rate was about 5.5 per 100,000 residents. Homicide data by county for 1999 and 2000 can be downloaded from the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data (NAJCD), and the counties won by Gore and Bush can be identified using the county-by-county election results made available by CNN. (The NACJD provides not only the number of reported murders for each county, but also the population for each.) The average murder rate in the counties won by Gore vs. the rate in the counties won by Bush can be determined from this data.

By calculating the murder rate for each county and then taking the averages, we find a murder rate (defined as number of murders per 100,000 residents) of about 5.2 for the "average" Gore county and 3.3 for the average Bush county. But since people, rather than counties, commit murders, a more appropriate approach is to calculate the total number of murders in the counties won by each candidate and divide that figure by the total number of residents in those counties. This more appropriate method yields the following average murder rates in counties won by each candidate:


Gore: 6.5
Bush: 4.1

There is a distinct difference between these two numbers, but it is nowhere near as large as the quoted e-mail message states (i.e., 13.2 for Gore vs. 2.1 for Bush). Note that the average of these two figures is 5.3, which, as expected, is very close to the reported national murder rate of 5.5.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
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That is exactly why we have to keep the liberals out of government. All they want to do is make more social programs for everyone to buy their votes at the taxpayer expense.
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
That is exactly why we have to keep the liberals out of government. All they want to do is make more social programs for everyone to buy their votes at the taxpayer expense.
Alias says things like this, but then accuses the LIBERALS of creating the divide between liberals and conservatives...

It's amazing how some people can't see themselves in the mirror for what they are...

And Alias? Considering George Bush's *buy your vote for $$$ tax refund* program, you've got no room to talk...
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
That is exactly why we have to keep the liberals out of government. All they want to do is make more social programs for everyone to buy their votes at the taxpayer expense.
Oh yeah??????????

It's the Debt . Don't Forget It!!
http://www.uwsa.com/uwsa-usdebt.html

----------------
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." ~ Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural

"The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom and before I leave office I must inform the Citizen of his plight." ~ President John F. Kennedy -Assassinated 10 days later!
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:52 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66
Alias says things like this, but then accuses the LIBERALS of creating the divide between liberals and conservatives...

It's amazing how some people can't see themselves in the mirror for what they are...

And Alias? Considering George Bush's *buy your vote for $$$ tax refund* program, you've got no room to talk...
So is that anything like the Democrats' "Buy your vote with Welfare Money" paradigm?
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Old 07-21-2006, 08:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66
Alias says things like this, but then accuses the LIBERALS of creating the divide between liberals and conservatives...

It's amazing how some people can't see themselves in the mirror for what they are...

And Alias? Considering George Bush's *buy your vote for $$$ tax refund* program, you've got no room to talk...
Liberals ARE the reason for the divide in this country. You need look no further. Bush's tax cut gave me some of MY money back. I'd rather vote for someone who gives me back some of my money than vote for someone who wants to take more of my money to provide some funding for pet projects of some social program designed by liberals for votes.

The liberal media has done all it can to undermine the war effort. Those marines sitting in jail is a national disgrace. You can't go over there and tell who is the enemy and yet you expect our young brave men and women to somehow do it and when they make a mistake you want to destroy their lives after they have put their life on the line for you. Disgusting.

Liberals smear, lie, distort facts, attack a person's family with threats, etc. Liberals are the reason we can't fight like we used to fight wars because they will defend an enemy who hides behind women and children before they will defend their own countrymen. Liberals have no national pride. I despise them.
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Old 07-21-2006, 09:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The only reason why liberals would be "dividing this country" is because they refuse to go along with this neo-conservative corporatist mantra which supports limiting our constitutional rights in the name of security. And its not just liberals. Many conservatives (unfortunately now called Paleoconservatives) who stay by the Republicans' original fiscal discipline and anti-authoritarian small government are opposing this administration and its reckless policies.

Its not just liberals, its libertarians, centerists, greens, socialists, conservatives, constitutionalists, etc. All but one. Neo-conservatives. Which tells you one thing, that the dissenters aren't leaving their government and country, their government and country are leaving them. No national pride? I don't think so.

You have no patriotism when dissent is crushed or discouraged, and blind servitude is praised. You have no patriotism when you think people who are outraged by war crimes are "discusting" and trying to undermine the war effort. You have no patriotism when you condone war profiteering rather than responsible war policies which get the job done. You have no patriotism when you would sacrafice your liberty and privacy for little temporary safety.

To say that it is "discusting" when people who engage in torture and war crimes are punished for their crimes and jailed is by all means anti-American. To think that a good citizen of a democracy blindly follows the leader where ever he goes, and to discourage dissent and socratic questioning is by all means anti-American. You're not an American. You don't represent this country. You will go down with your neo-conservative friends. And your alleged 'best friend': history, will not be sympathetic when it is heavily reprimanded under the glass of historical analysis.
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Old 07-21-2006, 09:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
Liberals ARE the reason for the divide in this country.
You keep claiming that, but then you keep turning around and making up ridiculous lies about liberals. You say that you won't support a liberal military member. You say that you want liberals out of government.

I realize you lack the honesty and capability for self-reflection necessary to acknowledge how ridiculously divisive you are, but others can see you were your bias on your sleeve.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
The liberal media has done all it can to undermine the war effort. Those marines sitting in jail is a national disgrace.
Oh yeah.
Those damn liberal media jailers.
Must be so farggin awful to have a news anchor throw you in jail.
< end sarcasm >


Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
You can't go over there and tell who is the enemy and yet you expect our young brave men and women to somehow do it and when they make a mistake you want to destroy their lives after they have put their life on the line for you.
What type of "mistake" are we talking about here?
Please. Be explicit...


Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
Liberals smear, lie, distort facts, attack a person's family with threats, etc.
Gee. That must make YOU a liberal then, eh alias?


Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
Liberals are the reason we can't fight like we used to fight wars because they will defend an enemy who hides behind women and children before they will defend their own countrymen.
ROFLMAO!!!

Yeah. LIBERALS are the reason this war is going badly.
Man. You have your head so far up your ass that you're smelling your tonsils.
Name me ANY real detrimental effect that a concerted liberal act has had on this war.
You can't. At least not without honesty. All you can do is toss around stupid generalizations.

This war is going badly because it's lead by idiots who lied to us at the start, and have been ignoring good military advice at various stages of the game.
Liberals have been pretty much ABSENT from any of the real decisions which have affected how this war is going. And people like you believe the hype that liberals are to blame.
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:29 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Liberals are for rights for the enemy. The enemy has no rights. He is supposed to be killed. You sure are stupid for an ex-military person.
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