Like with anything concerning civil rights, it will take time. And considering Paganism has only been (excuse another pun) out of the broom closet since the 1970's, we've actually come a long way in securing civil rights since then. And honestly, it's going to take time for people to actually stop and learn about any of the Pagan traditions. Heck, even among the Pagan traditions, because of the diversity of them, there's still a load of misunderstanding. Then you throw in the fluff bunnies with the idolisation of Buffy, Charmed, etc.???

We have alot of stereotypical ideals to overcome community wise and those willing to come out of the broom closet and become vocal. As more people actually start asking real questions instead of asking 'hey, do you really vanquish demons?', 'can you fly?', or my all time favorite, 'did you have to make a pack with the devil' type of questions?

There's centuries of stereotyping and myth to overcome before there will ever be true acceptance. And even then, there's always going to be those that cling to the misinformation just because they choose to remain blind. And those types really don't concern me much, nor make me less inclined to be myself.

No, but that's the usual claim of the religious right. I just assumed that's what you thought. What I know you said is that the religious right are not in control, which anybody with eyes and a brain can clearly see is false.

The Puritans came to America partly because they were persecuted and partly because they wanted nothing to do with the Church of England. Interestingly enough, the first thing they did after setting off for religious freedom was limit religious freedom. If you weren't christian, you weren't worthy to live with them.

The point I've been trying to make is when they arrived their system was fundamentalist, even by the standards of the time. I never said they weren't opressed.

If the Religious Right is in control, why did Democrats re-take Congress?

Point 1 TRUMPED.


Again, the Puritans were not Fundamentalists - in any sense that people today understood it. Their persecution drove them out of England, and they pretty much kept to themselves when they arrived. They set up their own towns and colonies, and they were rather homogeneous entities - which you can do when the entire area is basically one church.

Point 2 TRUMPED.

Not entirely true. The first permanent settlement was established in Jamestown in Chesapeake Bay for economic reasons and the possibility of land ownership, as there were climate changes leading to food shortages, a population boom leading to a large pauper population, and an increase in wool farming leading to the loss of available land. The king allowed colonization as it would benefit the English, hoping for gold and silver, but all they ended up with was tobacco.
Later the Pilgrims arrived, and they were a Separatist Puritan group, wanting to break from the Church of England, because of it's Catholic structure, and to escape the religious persecution back in England, establishing the Plymouth colony and then later other Puritans arrived, establishing the Massachusetts Bay colony as a place to live, work and pray together for the benefit of the Christian community. They did try to keep control over the colonists in the North, but not all settlers in the North were Puritans, many were in it for economic gain, while most people were in the middle.
The Puritans did try to keep their domination of the North through "revivals" and by making church membership open to the grandchildren of church members, whose parents had left the strict environment of the church to pursue individual economic interests.
The Puritans had originally left "good works" out of their religion, as Puritanism developed out of Calvinism, however due to the wilderness environment they lived in, and the fact that they lived with fear of attacks of Native Americans, they brought "good works" back into their religion, alarming people such as Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson, who spoke out and were themselves persecuted by the Puritans, and they sought exile in Rhode Island where a colony based on religious tolerance was later founded by Roger Williams.
Maryland was founded as a haven for Catholics who were facing religious persecution as well, as the English kings and queens changed the state religion with their reigns, but they were soon outnumbered by protestants, so Maryland also established a colony of religious tolerance.
So, while religion does have a strong history here in the United States, it was not the sole reason for colonization.

Basically, the Puritans came to the Americas after they'd lost their short tenur of rulership of the goverment in England.

For a short time, they were the ruling power, based on the grounds that the English were entertaining a retreat from the 'laviciousness rulership' that had been going on previously within the country...In otherwords, they'd gotten into power there temporarily, because people were feeling that their country had turned to 'godlessness'. And the new movement's name? Puritans...

They managed to keep control of British goverment (and enforce their rigid principles) for a number of years, until the people got tired of it. Basically, they came to the conclusion that policies had went from one extreme (heavily sexual explotation within the ruling classes, greed, overtly pagan traditions being practiced under the guise of Christianity) to the other extreme (sex except for procreation heavily dissuaded, no practicing of holidays with pagan roots, and rigid controls on it's citizens)...

So they booted the Puritans out of office, tried to establish a middle ground, and the Puritans left GB claiming religious prosecution and headed for the Americas where they could start their own colonies practicing their own religious beliefs...

I find this discussion interesting because it was just last month The History Channel ran a program about Puritans and their fight against paganism...

If the Religious Right is in control, why did Democrats re-take Congress?

Point 1 TRUMPED.
If they're not in control, why is separation of church and state such a big issue? Why are there such conflicts over relatively small issues like the HPV vaccine and comprehensive sex education? Those aren't secular issues. The Dems got in on the issue of Iraq, which has nothing to do with the moral issues the christian right is interested in.

Again, the Puritans were not Fundamentalists - in any sense that people today understood it. Their persecution drove them out of England, and they pretty much kept to themselves when they arrived. They set up their own towns and colonies, and they were rather homogeneous entities - which you can do when the entire area is basically one church.

Point 2 TRUMPED.
So they keeped to themselves. So how does that not make them fundamentalist? Even today, some of the most fundamentalist groups isolate themselves from the world in order to block out the "sinful" influences. The point isn't even whether or not they're fundies or not, it's that religion in America, compared with other regions, has not been as quick to go.

This supports the claim made above, Christianity including Protestant and Catholic sects.

Largest Religious Groups in the USA

Top Twenty Religions in the United States, 2001 projection for 2004
Religion 2004 Estimated % Pop.
Total Population in 2000
Christianity 224,437,959 76.5%
Nonreligious/
Secular 38,865,604 13.2%
Judaism 3,995,371 1.3%
Islam 1,558,068 0.5%
Buddhism 1,527,019 0.5%
Agnostic 1,398,592 0.5%
Atheist 1,272,986 0.4%
Hinduism 1,081,051 0.4%
Unitarian
Universalist 887,703 0.3%
Wiccan/Pagan/Druid 433,267 0.1%
Spiritualist 163,710 0.05%
Native American
Religion 145,363 0.05%
Baha'i 118,549 0.04%
New Age 95,968 0.03%
Sikhism 80,444 0.03%
Scientology 77,621 0.02%
Humanist 69,153 0.02%
Deity (Deist) 69,153 0.02%
Taoist 56,452 0.02%
Eckankar 36,694 0.01%

Teeth, I don't think anyone was refuting that Christianity was the religion most practiced in the US...

I think the argument was about that Christians are claiming that it's a 'Christian nation run by Christian ideals' and basically...Jeff disagrees. He's oppressed you know...

antithesis - you have to understand Jefferson's debating technique - if he screams "I win" loud enough - or calls out 'trumped' or whatever, that is supposed to mean that he's correct.

it's a very special technique which seems to be his favorite

I love Buffy, Charmed, Angel, and Harry Potter. How can it be that people don't get that they're fantasy entertainment and not real life?