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Branches of Government Debate topics of the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of Government.

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Old 12-20-2005, 10:33 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sgtdmski
What part of the fact that we are a constitutional republic do you not understand????? Since the electoral college is established in the constitution it is the law of the land, and as such, it is what must be followed, that is who I am to say that the law should be followed. As far as the electoral college, no liberal had a problem with it when Clinton won the election carrying only 42% of the electorate, only now when they lost a squeaker is there outcry.

I am sorry but the law as it is written is not a loophole, it is a system that has served this country for its 200+ years in existence. Once again even in your example you have 1 state dictating to the other 7 states what should be done. What if that one state contains all the major metropolitan areas, while the other seven contain the suburban and rural, why should that one state dictate to the others what is right. Once again, the President represents all the individual states as a whole, he is the national leader, and he should be a representative of all those who voted.

dmk
Very good point. I wonder why IRV wasn't mentioned during the Clinton years...
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Old 12-20-2005, 10:37 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hevusa
The will of the people was filtered through the electoral college, not determined by it. The person that gets the most votes should win regardless of how many states are carried. Having a point of view that is different from those in your community should NEVER dictate if your vote means something or not.

Candidates under the electoral college only have to cater to the states with the most electoral votes. You can win the presidency by carrying only 11 states! You need 270 electoral votes to win. Here is a breakdown:

State / # of electoral votes

CA 55
TX 34
NY 31
FL 27
IL 21
PA 21
OH 20
MI 17
GA 15
NJ 15
NC 15

Total: 271 Electoral Votes

Enough to reach the white house with only 11 states. So the other 39 states don't count???

TRY AGAIN!


In the past 200 years, there have been more than 700 attempts to abolish the Electoral College in Congress, 100 of them advocating election of the president by popular vote. All have been rejected. Why do those in power want to keep something that so obviously keeps them in power??? hmmmmmm, real hard one there.
And other than Ronald Reagan, name me a Presidential Candidate that carried all those states?? The only way to change the electoral college is through consitutional amendment, and that will not occur. First you will not get 2/3 of the vote required in the Congress and second you will not get 3/4 of the state legislatives to pass it. Why??? Because the electoral college gives each state the power as the other states, hence the reason why there are 2 Senators from each state, and that the House of Representatives is based upon the population of the states. By you misguided logic, it would possible for a state like california, which is more populous than other states, to have elected to congress representatives from only California. Don't confuse democracy with constitutional republic, they are two different beasts.

Why not divide the electoral votes proportionally? We can make the system more fair and unlock it to more parties than just two. There is no way our diverse country can be represented justly with only two parties.
--- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope ---

There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence.
Old 12-21-2005, 04:56 PM   #23 (permalink)
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mmmm i see that some people here continue to view Bush as an honest and brave president working for the safety of the world and the nation. I could bring to you tons of facts that will prove you wrong and expose your naivete, but i ill leave it to time and history to bring those facts out for themselves. instead been fed lies by right wing media i think you guys should be more objective on the issue rather than ignoring the truth that has become so obvious over the years.
Old 12-21-2005, 05:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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mmmm i see that some people here continue to view Bush as an honest and brave president working for the safety of the world and the nation. I could bring to you tons of facts that will prove you wrong and expose your naivete, but i ill leave it to time and history to bring those facts out for themselves. instead been fed lies by right wing media i think you guys should be more objective on the issue rather than ignoring the truth that has become so obvious over the years.
Their was large opposition to Reagan as well in the 80's. Only time and history will tell if Bush's plan to go to war was "right". Ya never know...
Old 12-21-2005, 06:42 PM   #25 (permalink)
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mmmm i see that some people here continue to view Bush as an honest and brave president working for the safety of the world and the nation. I could bring to you tons of facts that will prove you wrong and expose your naivete, but i ill leave it to time and history to bring those facts out for themselves. instead been fed lies by right wing media i think you guys should be more objective on the issue rather than ignoring the truth that has become so obvious over the years.
Their was large opposition to Reagan as well in the 80's. Only time and history will tell if Bush's plan to go to war was "right". Ya never know...
But that is just the thing. Reagan was an evil motherfucker as well. Giving him credit for ending the cold war was his greatest part he ever played. Standing there saying "Bring down this wall" and crap.

American public... hook, line and sinker.
--- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope ---

There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence.
Old 12-22-2005, 02:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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The voting system should be a count of all people's vote and the person with the most people voting for him, should win. This is common sense and mentioning the suburbs and the cities has nothing to do with it. Either the system is change so that who ever gets the most votes win, or we continue to mis-count, mis-represent, and mis-appoint, with the electoral vote system. Tell me how you think that not putting who wins the most votes in office is un fair. If the system allows someone to win that doesn't have the most votes then the electoral votes should be re-distributed. No matter if we are talking about Bush or Clinton, really, it makes no difference, in either case, who ever had the most votes should have been our president. Fair is fair.
Old 12-23-2005, 12:55 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hevusa
But that is just the thing. Reagan was an evil motherfucker as well. Giving him credit for ending the cold war was his greatest part he ever played. Standing there saying "Bring down this wall" and crap.

American public... hook, line and sinker.

The republican party was reborn because of Reagan. He won in a landslide in his second election for a reason...the tax cuts were working!

An evil motherfucker as well? Well according to the lefts view of Reagan, you are right! The left hated Reagan so much because he was actually standing up against the Soviets. What are all these peace protests going to solve?? The Soviet's simply could not keep up with Reagan's increase in military power including the "Star Wars" program. Sure it's a dream in our mind, but all of this is what led to the fall of the Soviet Union. They tried to compete with the US and they simply did not have the funds to do so...

Now if we had a liberal in office who tends to fund social programs instead of the military defense during that time...nuclear holocaust?

Reagan's successful policies led to more jobs, less unemployment, LOWER MORTGAGE RATES, small business growth, and a safer America. Basically fixed all of the lefts problems created in the 70's.

Sure he did spend a lot towards military (which pissed off the liberals); I am just glad he stood up to the Soviets! (which pissed off the liberals)

Forever will the liberals deny Reagan's accomplishments in ending the Cold War, because their peace rallies did not work.

I wouldn't mind if you called our current President all these different terms, but I wouldn't go as far as Reagan.
Old 12-23-2005, 05:12 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyreay
The voting system should be a count of all people's vote and the person with the most people voting for him, should win. This is common sense and mentioning the suburbs and the cities has nothing to do with it. Either the system is change so that who ever gets the most votes win, or we continue to mis-count, mis-represent, and mis-appoint, with the electoral vote system. Tell me how you think that not putting who wins the most votes in office is un fair. If the system allows someone to win that doesn't have the most votes then the electoral votes should be re-distributed. No matter if we are talking about Bush or Clinton, really, it makes no difference, in either case, who ever had the most votes should have been our president. Fair is fair.
Sorry but once again that is not fair. We are a Constitutional Republic, a republic that is made up of the fifty individual states, and as such our national leader is elected by the states not the individuals. The individuals in each state are allowed to vote on who they wish to be the elected leader, but then it is ultimately the states that decide. That is the system we have lived under for 200 + years, and that is the system that has been established by our Constitution. Our founding fathers established the Electoral College as a compromise. The founding fathers had no intention of allowing the citizens to vote for the presidency, initially the choice was to allow Congress to elect the Presidency, however, this did not bode well with the idea of the separation of powers, Congress next thought that the state legislatures should elect the President, however, this lead to the fear that the President would become beholden to state interests. Finally, James Wilson devised the electoral college, which allowed the citizens to take part in the electing of the President, but gave the states a say in the voting since the President would be the elected leader of the entire Republic. Thus the electoral college was established. It recognizes not only the will of the people, but the will of the member states of the republic.

As far as my mention the differences between urban, suburban and rural areas, this was exactly the reason why the Founders sought a method of electing a President who would represent all the states. Once again, the needs of the different states vary. Urban areas have many more industrial jobs which in turn have more unionized workers, whereas, rural areas have less industrial jobs and thus less unionized workers. The needs of the two are different, thus the electoral college protects the different needs. Furthermore, urban areas are more populated than the suburban and rural areas, once again this causes different problems or needs to arise.

Despite your contention, the votes are not miscounted, misrepresented, nor misappointed. The votes reflect the equality of the 50 member states of this Republic, not granting more weight to one state over another, all states are equal.

Once again, the election of a President should not be a popularity contest. The President should be the person that best represents the majority of the member states. In the 2000 election, George W Bush was that person. He carried more states, meaning that his platform was acceptable to the majority of the people in more states than was Al Gore's platform.

Quit thinking in terms of our country being a democracy, we are not, we are a constitutional republic. Take time to read the consitution before you make outrageous charges against the system. For a document that was written more than 200 years ago, it has done an extremely remarkable job of protecting our country and the individuals rights. Ignorance is not bliss, ignorance leads only to death.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-
Old 12-23-2005, 05:27 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa

Why not divide the electoral votes proportionally? We can make the system more fair and unlock it to more parties than just two. There is no way our diverse country can be represented justly with only two parties.
Because unlike Great Britain, we do not have a parliamentarian government, in which our National Leader is elected by Congress. Proportional voting only works when you are electing a legislature, not when electing a President.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-
Old 12-23-2005, 05:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roosevelt dunn
mmmm i see that some people here continue to view Bush as an honest and brave president working for the safety of the world and the nation. I could bring to you tons of facts that will prove you wrong and expose your naivete, but i ill leave it to time and history to bring those facts out for themselves. instead been fed lies by right wing media i think you guys should be more objective on the issue rather than ignoring the truth that has become so obvious over the years.
Then why don't you bring the facts to prove us all wrong?? What's the matter are you afraid they will not hold up to scrutiny. Show us what truth that we are missing that you say is so obvious. Somehow the majority of the country has missed it, because President Bush in his reelection received more votes than any other President in history, including my beloved Reagan. So obviously, we are not seeing the same truth as you.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-
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