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Old 01-21-2006, 03:20 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I agree whole-heartedly!
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Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong. ~Richard Armour

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Old 01-22-2006, 10:16 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LibertaRiaN
ITA. I just make the jokes about Nixon because he has such a poor reputation.......he really wasn't that bad a President until Watergate.
That's right
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Old 01-23-2006, 05:56 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski
Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66
Your comments may invoke other issues into play, but what aMFliberal quoted still applies.
Even if they are classifed as a "Foreign Agent", a U.S. citizen SHOULD STILL be a U.S. CITIZENS until the courts say otherwise. (Unless we suddenly gave the president power to revoke citizenry based on suspicions...)
Thus they would be a part of the quoted section B "(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party; and..."

Nothing you have said negates this.
As such, Bush's actions inside the U.S. would be EXPLICITLY outside the scope of the afore-mentioned powers.

The only way around it would be to declare the participants as no longer U.S. citizens, and Bush DOES NOT have that power.

If you're tapping UNITED STATES phone calls where one of the ends is a UNITED STATES phone, it seems blatantly obvious that there is a VERY SUBSTANTIAL likelihood that the contents of the communication will include conversations which are explicitly forbidden.

And in addition, note the wording. It doesn't say that if a participant is KNOWN not to be a U.S. citizen. It talks about the LIKELIHOOD that such a tap could involve a participants who is a U.S. citizen. In other words, if you have a house which has 3 non-U.S. citizens, and one U.S. citizen as residents, it would be illegal to tap that phone's house because there WOULD BE a "substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party".
I agree with this statement whole heartedly. I do not believe that the President has the right to tap phones within the United States without a warrant. However, it seems that this case is about the phones being tapped in foreign countries.
To some degree, this is a matter of semantics. And possibly, it's semantical on my level as well.
He cannot "tap" the phone in Afghanistan.
He is actually "tapping" any phone that makes contact with some sets of phones in Afghanistan.

And as the discussed article made plain, it doesn't matter if one party of the phone conversation is non-U.S.
If EITHER of the phone conversation participants are United States personnel, or have a "substantial likelihood" of being a United States personnel, then this piece of legislation that was quoted cannot be used to authorize the tap.

If you don't like it, then rewrite the legislation. Just don't ignore what the legislation ACTUALLY says.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski
As more reports come out, we now are learning that the calls being intercepted are those that are being made to a known or suspected terrorist, or someone who has ties to the known or suspected terrorist. So the first question I would have to ask someone would be why are you calling this person???
dmk
You discuss "more reports come out".
If you can reference what reports you are talking about, I would appreciate it. If there is evidence that the government's actions are actually having results and not primarily wasted, a lot of my complaints would just plain disappear.
Part of my problem though is that I don't see the government's actions as having an impact on the war on terror.

The reports I am saying are of a generic nature and are showing quite plainly that the government's "tapping" efforts are by and large wasted. They aren't tapping terrorists or people talking to terrorists. They're tapping conversations which have nothing to do with terrorism. (For the most part)

Whether that's because the government has labelled too many people as "suspected terrorist" when they aren't actually terrorists or not is unknown.

September 11th, 2001 came about because of a failure of our intelligence community on multiple levels.
In this day and age, I think that what we're seeing is NEW failures of our intelligence community to be busier by spying on more people, but accomplishing nothing new.

I would say the track record and objective analysis of the situation calls for NOT PANDERING to the government's desire to claim "suspected terrorist" and actually demand that they GET BETTER.
We shouldn't allow them more powers to invade our privacy while acruing no real improvement in safety.

Let's demand "smarter" work. Not just allow more invasive work...
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Old 02-07-2006, 05:35 PM   #54 (permalink)
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At Senate hearings yesterday on the Bush administration's domestic spying program, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales tried to evade the simple truth: the president broke the law. But after one day, it's unclear if or when hearings will start again.
We can't let the administration off the hook. So it's up to all of us to keep the heat up, and make sure the focus is on the president's disdain for the rule of law.
The Bush administration is desperately trying to change the subject, claiming this is about who is strong on terrorism, because they know they haven't got a legal leg to stand on. They've even started using the misleading moniker "terrorist surveillance program" to describe illegal spying on Americans in the United States. At the hearings, even Republican senators were upset by the attorney general's misleading and false answers to questions. But the pattern of deception and lies about domestic spying isn't new.

Consider these key facts:

First, the president said publicly there was no such program. He said, "Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."1 He lied.


For weeks, Gonzales, President Bush and others have insisted that the wiretapping program was only applied to suspected terrorists.2 But just last Sunday, the Washington Post exposed that the program was broad and not limited to suspected terrorists. In a nutshell, it's a fishing expedition and participants are increasingly "uncomfortable with the mountain of data they have now begun to accumulate."3


And yesterday, the attorney general said that he could not assure the Senate that the program did not eavesdrop on innocent Americans.4
Last week, tens of thousands of us contributed to our 2006 ground plan. We have to keep the drumbeat up and demand accountability.

https://political.moveon.org/donate/...mIHdzkkl7Q&t=4

The comparison between Nixon and Bush is very important. Nixon was also illegally spying on Americans for reasons he claimed were related to national security. America disagreed and we passed a law after Nixon resigned that balanced national security and the civil rights of Americans. President Bush is breaking that law—and we need a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this.


https://political.moveon.org/donate/...mIHdzkkl7Q&t=5

FISA Was Passed in 1978 to Prescribe Procedures for Physical and Electronic Surveillance.
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ( FISA) of 1978 prescribes procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between or among "foreign powers."

hhttp://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36.html

The highly classified FISA court was set up in the 1970s to authorize secret surveillance of espionage and terrorism suspects within the United States. Under the law setting up the court, the Justice Department must show probable cause that its targets are foreign governments or their agents. The FISA law does include emergency provisions that allow warrant-less eavesdropping for up to 72 hours if the attorney general certifies there is no other way to get the information. ("Judges on Surveillance Court To Be Briefed on Spy Program," Washington Post, 12/22/05)

According to the New York Times, Bush Authorized a Secret Spying Program Outside the FISA Systems.
"Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others without the court-approved warrants required for domestic spying, according to government officials. . . Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years." ("Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts," New York Times, 12/16/05)

In January, the Non-Partisan Congressional Research Service Reported that Bush Broke Law
"A Congressional Research Service [CRS] report concludes that: 'the Bush administration's limited briefings for Congress on the National Security Agency's domestic eavesdropping without warrants are 'inconsistent with the law.''" ("Report Questions Legality of Briefings on Surveillance," New York Times, 1/19/06)

Legal Experts Repudiated President Bush's Claim that He has Inherent Power for Wiretaps as Commander-in-Chief. Congress has the authority to regulate electronic surveillance in the United States. Under FISA the President must seek court approval for electronic surveillance.
A letter to Congress from a group of legal experts including Lawrence Tribe, David Cole, Ronald Dworkin, and others concluded: "But even conceding that the President in his role as Commander in Chief may generally collect "signals intelligence" on the enemy abroad, Congress indisputably has authority to regulate electronic surveillance within the United States, as it has done in FISA. Where Congress has so regulated, the President can act in contravention of statute only if his authority is exclusive, that is, not subject to the check of statutory regulation." ("On NSA Spying: A Letter to Congress," The New York Review of Books, 2/9/06)

The Non-Partisan Congressional Research Service Repudiated President Bush's Claim that the NSA Program was Authorized after September 11th.
A Congressional Research Service [CRS] report concludes, "that Bush's assertion that Congress authorized such eavesdropping to detect and fight terrorists does not appear to be supported by the special resolution that Congress approved after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which focused on authorizing the president to use military force. " ("Report Rebuts Bush on Spying; Domestic Action's Legality Challenged," Washington Post, 1/7/06)

Contrary to Administration Claims, Congress Was Not Informed of Wiretapping Program—Another Likely Infringement of the Law.
White House Counselor Dan Bartlett claimed: "We went to Congress. We talked to the chairman and the ranking member of the intelligence committee. We talked to the leadership, both Republican and Democrat, House and Senate. These very discussions happened three to four years ago... The fact of the matter is, everybody came to the same conclusion, that what the president was doing was legal and was necessary." CNN American Morning, 1/23/06

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...23/ltm.08.html

But Senator Jay Rockefeller released a sealed 7/03 letter that warned of "profound oversight issues" with warrant-less spying program: "For the last few days, I have witnessed the President, the Vice President, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General repeatedly misrepresents the facts. The record needs to be set clear that the Administration never afforded members briefed on the program an opportunity to either approve or disapprove the NSA program. The limited members who were told of the program were prohibited by the Administration from sharing any information about it with our colleagues, including other members of the Intelligence Committees."

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-images/upload/Intell.pdf

And in a separate report from the one described above, the Congressional Research Office concluded that "the Bush administration's limited briefings for Congress on the National Security Agency's domestic eavesdropping without warrants are 'inconsistent with the law.'" ("Report Questions Legality of Briefings on Surveillance," New York Times, 1/19/06)
Contrary to Administration Claims, NSA Spying Uncovered "No Imminent Plots . . . Inside the United States."
"The law enforcement and counterterrorism officials said the program had uncovered no active Qaeda networks inside the United States planning attacks. 'There were no imminent plots—not inside the United States,' the former F.B.I. official said." ("Spy Agency Data after 9/11 Let F.B.I. to Dead Ends," New York Times, 1/17/06)
Contrary to Administration Claims, NSA Spying Program was Broad and Unfocused. o "In the anxious months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the National Security Agency began sending a steady stream of telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and names to the F.B.I. in search of terrorists. The stream soon became a flood, requiring hundreds of agents to check out thousands of tips a month. [...] 'We'd chase a number, find it's a schoolteacher with no indication they've ever been involved in international terrorism—case closed,' said one former F.B.I. official...After you get a thousand numbers and not one is turning up anything, you get some frustration.'" ("Spy Agency Data after 9/11 Let F.B.I. to Dead Ends," New York Times, 1/17/06)

Numerous Legal Scholars and Republican Leaders say President Bush Broke the Law.
CONSTITUTIONAL LAW SCHOLARS AND FORMER GOV. OFFICIALS: "Although the program's secrecy prevents us from being privy to all of its details the Justice Department's defense of what it concedes was secret and warrantless electronic surveillance of persons within the United States fails to identify any plausible legal authority for such surveillance. Accordingly the program appears on its face to violate existing law." ("On NSA Spying: A Letter to Congress," The New York Review of Books, 2/9/06)
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: "If he has the authority to go around the FISA court, which is a court to accommodate the law of the war of terror, the FISA Act was—created a court set up by the chief justice of the United States to allow a rapid response to requests for surveillance activity in the war on terror. I don't know of any legal basis to go around that . There may be some, but I'm not aware of it."

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/18/no-legal-basis

SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER: "'There is no doubt that this is inappropriate,' said Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), who favored the Patriot Act renewal but said the NSA issue provided valuable ammunition for its opponents."("On Hill, Anger and Calls for Hearings Greet News of Stateside Surveillance," Washington Post, 12/17/05)
GROVER NORQUIST: "Referring to what some see as a conflict between fighting vicious terrorists and upholding all civil liberties, Norquist said: 'It's not either/or. If the president thinks he needs different tools, pass a law to get them. Don't break the existing laws .' " ("Political opposites aligned against Bush wiretaps," San Francisco Chronicle, 1/26/06)
JOHN MCCAIN : "Wallace: But you do not believe that currently he has the legal authority to engage in these warrant-less wiretaps. McCain: You know, I don't think so, but why not come to Congress?" (Fox News Sunday, 12/22/05)
CHUCK HAGEL : "Chuck Hagel said he is looking forward to congressional hearings on the legal justification for the secretive National Security Agency program. He remains unconvinced that Bush could allow the program without fully consulting with the courts or Congress." ("Hagel Urges Bush to Explain Spy Program," Associated Press, 1/29/06) "If he needs more authority, he just can't unilaterally decide that that 1978 law is out of date and he will be the guardian of America and he will violate that law." (This Week, 1/29/06)
CONGRESSMAN BOB BARR: "It's bad to be spying on Americans apparently in violation of federal laws against doing it without court order. So it's bad all around, and we need to get to the bottom of this. . . And if we're going to say, well, simply because some people think that this is a new threat, we're going to throw the constitution and specific laws out the window and let a president rule by the seat of his pants, is extremely dangerous, and it's uncalled for. The president had full authority to have done this under the law. He apparently chose not to, and we need to find out why? . . . Well, I am because the law provides very vast authority, and for the president, or Frank Gaffney to justify the president saying even though I have the authority under the law to do it, I have to take certain steps, I'm just going to ignore that, puts us in a situation where we've seen in decades past, with Mr. Nixon, with President Lincoln and others, President Truman, when they overstep their bounds, they need to be held accountable.

Americans Disapprove of Bush's Overreach, According to Polls.
CNN/USA Today (Jan. 20-22): "As you may know, the Bush Administration has been wiretapping telephone conversations between U.S. citizens living in the United States and suspected terrorists living in other countries without getting a court order allowing it to do so. Do you think the Bush Administration was right or wrong in wiretapping these conversations without obtaining a court order?" Right 46%. Wrong 51%.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...itroom.03.html

CBS/NYT (Jan 20-25): "After 9/11, George W. Bush authorized government wiretaps on some phone calls in the U.S. without getting court warrants. Do you approve or disapprove of George W. Bush doing this?" Approve 46%. Disapprove 50%.

http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm
Sources:

1. Bush Defends NSA Spying Program, CNN.com, January 1, 2006
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/01/nsa.spying/

2. Eavesdropping targets only al Qaeda: US officials, Reuters, February 5, 2006
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1451

3. Surveillance Net Yields Few Suspects, Washington Post, February 5, 2006
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1441

4. Gonzales: 'I Cannot Give You Absolute Assurance' That We Are Not Spying on Innocent Americans, Thinkprogress, February 6, 2006
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1452

https://political.moveon.org/donate/...mIHdzkkl7Q&t=3
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Old 02-07-2006, 07:15 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Good stuff tyreay
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:39 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Impeachment is the order of the day!!!
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:41 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyreay
Impeachment is the order of the day!!!
Can't wait for Cheney then??
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Old 02-08-2006, 01:11 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Good point, but if it could happen to Bush I can be hopeful about Cheney's fate too! The truely scary thing is who is next in line.
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Old 02-08-2006, 02:21 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridinhighspeeds
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyreay
Impeachment is the order of the day!!!
Can't wait for Cheney then??
Well I believe most of the administration would be considered in the hearings. Its not just Bush that is committing and standing up for criminal actions. I personally think Cheney is more of a crook than Bush, and if the miracle were to happen and Bush would be facing impeachment, I think Cheney also along with most of the other top administration officials would also be indicted.
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Old 02-28-2006, 10:40 AM   #60 (permalink)
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To answer my own Question, Yes, Bush is breaking the law(and still running a smoke screen to cover it up)!!
Please sign the following petition!

http://ga3.org/campaign/fisa_warrants?qp_source=google6
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