Is Bush Breaking the Law?

tyreay · 01-03-2006, 06:37 AM

Up to 20 whistle blowers from our government have come forward concerning whether or not the President's current policy of domestic spying is even legal. The Justice department is investigating who 'leaked' this info concerning the program to the author of 'State of War', James Risen. Mr. Risen contents that this spying is not legal through the Patriot Act. A number of senators are looking into whether this is true, concerning the legality of Bushes actions. It was claimed, on the senate floor, that the constitution does not provide for the President to spy on his own people, and that this is not cover by the patriot act either, that what Bush has done is criminal.
I hope someone finally stands up and has Bush arrested on criminal charges. Impeachment is not enough! I beleive the question is not if Bush is guilty, but should Chaney be charged too. We have been lied to long enough. Our leaders are self-serving, self-centered, money hungry, War and Oil mongers. It is sad that I should actually be concerned with writting these words.
I Am an American and my opinion is given to me by the freedom of speech provided by our country. Yet I sit here, with reservations concerning these words, wondering if this forum is part of said spy program. Should I have to worry? Not if this country is still this country. Don't let Bush make this country a democratic dictatorship. Speak up and write your Reps and Senators!! Our right to freedom of speech is under direct threat from our own President.
How sad is that?

hevusa · 01-03-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyreay

Up to 20 whistle blowers from our government have come forward concerning whether or not the President's current policy of domestic spying is even legal. The Justice department is investigating who 'leaked' this info concerning the program to the author of 'State of War', James Risen. Mr. Risen contents that this spying is not legal through the Patriot Act. A number of senators are looking into whether this is true, concerning the legality of Bushes actions. It was claimed, on the senate floor, that the constitution does not provide for the President to spy on his own people, and that this is not cover by the patriot act either, that what Bush has done is criminal.
I hope someone finally stands up and has Bush arrested on criminal charges. Impeachment is not enough! I beleive the question is not if Bush is guilty, but should Chaney be charged too. We have been lied to long enough. Our leaders are self-serving, self-centered, money hungry, War and Oil mongers. It is sad that I should actually be concerned with writting these words. I Am an American and my opinion is given to me by the freedom of speech provided by our country. Yet I sit here, with reservations concerning these words, wondering if this forum is part of said spy program. Should I have to worry? Not if this country is still this country. Don't let Bush make this country a democratic dictatorship. Speak up and write your Reps and Senators!! Our right to freedom of speech is under direct threat from our own President.
How sad is that?

No kidding man. I also wonder if the powers at be will strike at any comments made in a forum like this.

What bugs me about the President is that he doesn't even seem sorry that he has been doing these illegal things.... he was just sorry that it had been leaked.

aMFliberal · 01-03-2006, 05:15 PM

I agree with you. Immediately as the news was released, I thought his breach of executive power warranted impeachment. If one principle should dominate this whole issue is that there should be absolutley NO slack, NO sympathy given to George Bush. He is the President and whether people like it or not he is one of the most, if not the most powerful man in the world. He should be held up to the HIGHEST standards. NO sympathy. People argue even if this is a breach of executive power, he did what was necessary and it should not warrant an impeachment. That notion is ridiculous. Nothing less than the highest possible standards should be held towards Bush's actions.

tadpole256 · 01-03-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aMFliberal

I agree with you. Immediately as the news was released, I thought his breach of executive power warranted impeachment. If one principle should dominate this whole issue is that there should be absolutley NO slack, NO sympathy given to George Bush. He is the President and whether people like it or not he is one of the most, if not the most powerful man in the world. He should be held up to the HIGHEST standards. NO sympathy. People argue even if this is a breach of executive power, he did what was necessary and it should not warrant an impeachment. That notion is ridiculous. Nothing less than the highest possible standards should be held towards Bush's actions.

Agreed... He needs to be knocked down to size. He is simply the most evil president in history.

sgtdmski · 01-03-2006, 11:22 PM

You know what tyreay, both you and the author Mr Risen are correct that this is not an issue covered by the Patriot Act. However, where you error is in the fact the warrantless surveillance is covered under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. This act allows the President with the approval of the Attorney General to conduct surveillance.

The surveillance began immediately following the 9/11 attacks. And was initially directed at calls placed to Afghanistan, where we knew to be the base of operations for Al-Qaeda.

All this crying about the Patriot Act and now this spying issue is beginning to sound like a broken record. One thing is certain, since 9/11 there have been no further successful terrorist attacks on American soil. Unlike the 1990's where after the successful attack on the WTC we saw follow-up attacks on US Embassies, and the USS Cole. Instead of applauding the fact that the government has actually been successful in preventing further attacks, everyone wants to cry out about hypothetical evils.

Whistleblowers are great when they actually blow the whistle on misdeeds. However, before believing them whole-heartedly, one must ask what are their motives. Gvernment employees are almost impossible to fire, however, not always to the members of the bureaucracy support the administration. They become whistleblowers because they wish to embarass the current administration.

No act of surveillance can be directed at a US Citizen without the approval of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. We have no idea what type of surveillance has been conducted. The only thing that we know is that it has been conducted. All these people running around like chickens with their heads cut off seems ridiculous.

It will be interesting to see what the whole story really is, and what results occur to the leaking of classified information. Thanks to the media al-Qaeda found out we were able to monitor and track them from their cell phone calls, so they stopped using cell phones. Now once again thanks to the media, foreign agents in this country now know that their calls were being monitored, so once again we see the aiding and abetting of our enemies in the name of freedom of the press. It seems more like treason to me.

Finally what purpose did your diatribe serve??? All you complaining about beng an american and your right to free speech is just more crying wolf. Obviously no agent of our government has knocked on your door to question you, for if they had we would have heard about it by now from you. No one has impeded your right to speech, or denied you access to this site. So your reservations are nothing more than an attempt to elicit an emotional response from your supporters. You have offered no proof for any of your contentions regarding the character of this administration other than the rantings of editorial writers.

And all those who jumped on the band wagon, no one has shown that these actions are illegal. What because you think they are, then they must be, if only it were that simple.

dmk

aMFliberal · 01-04-2006, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgtdmski

You know what tyreay, both you and the author Mr Risen are correct that this is not an issue covered by the Patriot Act. However, where you error is in the fact the warrantless surveillance is covered under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. This act allows the President with the approval of the Attorney General to conduct surveillance.

The surveillance began immediately following the 9/11 attacks. And was initially directed at calls placed to Afghanistan, where we knew to be the base of operations for Al-Qaeda.

All this crying about the Patriot Act and now this spying issue is beginning to sound like a broken record. One thing is certain, since 9/11 there have been no further successful terrorist attacks on American soil. Unlike the 1990's where after the successful attack on the WTC we saw follow-up attacks on US Embassies, and the USS Cole. Instead of applauding the fact that the government has actually been successful in preventing further attacks, everyone wants to cry out about hypothetical evils.

Whistleblowers are great when they actually blow the whistle on misdeeds. However, before believing them whole-heartedly, one must ask what are their motives. Gvernment employees are almost impossible to fire, however, not always to the members of the bureaucracy support the administration. They become whistleblowers because they wish to embarass the current administration.

No act of surveillance can be directed at a US Citizen without the approval of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. We have no idea what type of surveillance has been conducted. The only thing that we know is that it has been conducted. All these people running around like chickens with their heads cut off seems ridiculous.

It will be interesting to see what the whole story really is, and what results occur to the leaking of classified information. Thanks to the media al-Qaeda found out we were able to monitor and track them from their cell phone calls, so they stopped using cell phones. Now once again thanks to the media, foreign agents in this country now know that their calls were being monitored, so once again we see the aiding and abetting of our enemies in the name of freedom of the press. It seems more like treason to me.

Finally what purpose did your diatribe serve??? All you complaining about beng an american and your right to free speech is just more crying wolf. Obviously no agent of our government has knocked on your door to question you, for if they had we would have heard about it by now from you. No one has impeded your right to speech, or denied you access to this site. So your reservations are nothing more than an attempt to elicit an emotional response from your supporters. You have offered no proof for any of your contentions regarding the character of this administration other than the rantings of editorial writers.

And all those who jumped on the band wagon, no one has shown that these actions are illegal. What because you think they are, then they must be, if only it were that simple.

dmk

Well, call me crazy but I searched FISA and came to the Cornell Law School site at this link: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht..._50_10_36.html

I believe the type of surveillance in question is electronic, so if you go to the link above, then click on Subchapter I - Electronic Surveillance.

When you get there you see the definitions and it outlines the procedure for electronic surveillance and using the information. The procedure is in fact how you described it in your post. What I am seeing here, however, is a procedure for foreign electronic surveillance. The chapter is as titled in the first link "FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE". So assuming Bush followed the procedure, wouldn't he still be breaking the law? Because his legal justification for electronic surveillance on United States citizens is from a chapter in the U.S. Code titled "FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE".

Tabris · 01-04-2006, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aMFliberal

Well, call me crazy but I searched FISA and came to the Cornell Law School site at this link: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht..._50_10_36.html

I believe the type of surveillance in question is electronic, so if you go to the link above, then click on Subchapter I - Electronic Surveillance.

When you get there you see the definitions and it outlines the procedure for electronic surveillance and using the information. The procedure is in fact how you described it in your post. What I am seeing here, however, is a procedure for foreign electronic surveillance. The chapter is as titled in the first link "FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE". So assuming Bush followed the procedure, wouldn't he still be breaking the law? Because his legal justification for electronic surveillance on United States citizens is from a chapter in the U.S. Code titled "FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE".

Indeed, but the people he's surveilling are people who are calling flagged countries. Any sort of sweep is going to yield a lot of garbage, and then a computer program sorts out most of that, then you have a person sort the remaining stuff that the computer can't sort out. Unless you have some sort of business in Iran, I don't think you'll be spied on. If your call gets accidentally picked up, it sucks but it's most likely deleted before anyone even sees it. I mean, unless you commonly have conversations that include the word BOMB and TERRORIST and other flags that the program picks up on.

My concern would be with him specifically monitoring citizens, rather than flagging calls that go to Iran.

tyreay · 01-04-2006, 09:32 AM

Tabris, I don't believe for a second that Bush is only spying on people calling places like Iran. I think anybody useing hit words is going to get flagged, including in a forum like this. Hit words are the key phrase here. I talk about TERRORIST, and BOMBS, and BUSH, and I'm sure many other words considered 'dangerous'. I don't believe the intelligence community could resist coming here to take a look. Since there are no checks and balances in this system it is impossible to know for sure. aMFlib has a good point, Foreign Intelligence Surveillence should have nothing to do with domestic communications. It is called foreign for a reason. Not to mention that mulitple senators believe these acts taken by Bush are illegal, according to the laws and bills set forth by this nation. There is no justification for these laws being broken, other than the lies made up by the white house press people. How can you have a reason for breaking the laws set forth by our government? These 'reasons' don't work for all the other criminals, why should this be any different? In the end any judge would call said reasoning an a attempt to get out of the charge. Same thing. If it is illegal than it is illegal. No amount of bullshit is going to change these facts!!

Tabris · 01-04-2006, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyreay

Tabris, I don't believe for a second that Bush is only spying on people calling places like Iran. I think anybody useing hit words is going to get flagged, including in a forum like this. Hit words are the key phrase here. I talk about TERRORIST, and BOMBS, and BUSH, and I'm sure many other words considered 'dangerous'. I don't believe the intelligence community could resist coming here to take a look. Since there are no checks and balances in this system it is impossible to know for sure. aMFlib has a good point, Foreign Intelligence Surveillence should have nothing to do with domestic communications. It is called foreign for a reason. Not to mention that mulitple senators believe these acts taken by Bush are illegal, according to the laws and bills set forth by this nation. There is no justification for these laws being broken, other than the lies made up by the white house press people. How can you have a reason for breaking the laws set forth by our government? These 'reasons' don't work for all the other criminals, why should this be any different? In the end any judge would call said reasoning an a attempt to get out of the charge. Same thing. If it is illegal than it is illegal. No amount of bullshit is going to change these facts!!

Yes it's called foreign and anyone being watched is being watched in the first place because of FOREIGN contact with a flagged nation. And there should be checks and balances, and the laws need to be updated because right now it's a gray area to begin with. I don't agree with what Bush is doing, but he's really not breaking the law. I'm really not worried about being spyed on or anything. Anything that gets picked up will just be discarded anyway before a human even sees it. My concern would be if he started spying directly on people like political enemies, which he could be doing and THAT'S a problem.

tyreay · 01-04-2006, 10:17 AM

Our opinions differ only in the fact that I think, since there are no checks and balances, that Bush is spying on more than just out of counrty communications. No way to prove this, I know, but since we have no process to check our actions here, no way to disprove it either!