Defending the Truth

try to stick to the topic

Ahh. Digging in with the insults.
That's usually a sign that you've got little left to offer, and you are starting to devolve the topic away from the actual topic matter.
Be forewarned that I'm not going to be drawn away from the topic matter.


Pay attention. I'm only going to say this over and over again until you actually comprehend it.
I acknowledge that Nagin made mistakes. Pure and simple. We agree on that...
Yet you keep bringing up an issue we agree on in attempt to side-step the issue of Bush's culpability...
The evacuation failure was one of Nagin's mistakes. It was Nagin's fault.
Beyond possibly the governor sharing some fault in this area, it is SOLELY the fault of Nagin (and possibly the governor).
I have said nothing to deny this.

But what you fail to comprehend is that pointing the finger at Nagin IS NOT going to diminish Bush's culpability.

I am willing to agree regarding Nagin's failure.
Why are you not willing to address Bush's?


And again with the insults, while you ignore what I ACTUALLY said.
While you keep dragging the topic away from the POINT.

This is about Bush's culpability in the Katrina failure.
It's about his role in Brown's failure.
That is why it is in the "Bush Administration" category.

But now you seem to understand that I am not going to be dragged from the actual topic matter, and then you start in with the name-calling.

It's a rather ineffective debate tactic...
It demonstrates frustration on your part, but little else...


Why do you pose the question as a matter of extremes?
It's like you're demanding that I pick 1 or 10 only, when possible solutions exist in the numbers 2 through 9.
Your very question demonstrates that you utterly and completely fail to comprehend the PURPOSE of FEMA, and how it has SUCCESSFULLY dealt with disasters in the past.

You know nothing of this topic, and your bluster is only emphasizing that point instead of covering it up.

FEMA's function, when it functions properly, DOES NOT NEED to micro-manage in order to help save lives and help people in need.

You ask a false question, demonstrating you know nothing about FEMA and how it's supposed to function.

When FEMA functions properly, it does not need to "micro-manage", like you seem to think it does.

Have you even looked at the reports discussing how and where FEMA failed?

Have you even looked at the reports showing what FEMA did wrong?

It has nothing to do with needing to micro-manage.
http://katrina.house.gov/full_katrina_report.htm

You have not yet explained (as I am responding to this specific post) WHY you think FEMA would have to "micro-manage" in order to properly do its job...
I personally suspect that is because you have no clue as to what FEMA should have done (and didn't do) in the disaster response efforts...

The vast majority of FEMA's failures have nothing to do with forced evacuation.
Mandatory evacuation was a decision at the STATE/LOCAL level, and it was the STATE/LOCAL level which made the majority of mistakes in the evacuation issue.


"what most people expect them to have done"???
You have NO CLUE what most people expected them to do. You have no clue as to what FEMA's mistakes ACTUALLY were...
You JUST PROVED THAT by pretending that it revolved around forced evacuation.

Announcing mandatory evacuation was a failure at the state level. It should have been earlier, and been more thorough in its announcement.

Please. Start educating yourself on these issues instead of making it up as you go along...
I recommend you start here...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/...ess/index.html

Then, you can review the actual report itself. Here is a summary of what they said about the failures of evacuation. A failure at the state and local level.
The failure of the federal government in this venue, if any, was on ASSISTING evacuation. Not in forcing it...

The failure of complete evacuations led to preventable deaths, great suffering, and further delays in relief
■ Evacuations of general populations went relatively well in all three states.
■ Despite adequate warning 56 hours before landfall, Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin delayed ordering a mandatory evacuation in New Orleans until 19 hours before landfall.
■ The failure to order timely mandatory evacuations, Mayor Nagin’s decision to shelter but not evacuate the remaining population, and decisions of individuals led to an incomplete evacuation.
■ The incomplete pre-landfall evacuation led to deaths, thousands of dangerous rescues, and horrible conditions for those who remained.
■ Federal, state, and local officials’ failure to anticipate the post-landfall conditions delayed post-landfall evacuation and support.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...xecsummary.pdf

http://katrina.house.gov/full_katrina_report.htm

Here's a simple and direct question for you Jefferson.
Ignore it if you will...

Was Mike Brown qualified to be appointed as head of FEMA?

Did Bush make a serious mistake in appointing Brown as head of FEMA?
A mistake which had serious repercussions upon the capability of FEMA to respond to this disaster under an inept and incompetent director?


Yes, yes, yes...
Nagin made serious errors in the Katrina response.
FEMA made serious mistakes in the Katrina response.

The question which YOU won't address is BUSH'S culpability in this disaster response disaster...

Pffffft. Read my posts.

1. I've already said that FEMA was not ready to deal with Katrina.
2. Brown did not correctly lead FEMA.
3. Bush was wrong to appoint Brown as head of FEMA - though there's now some evidence pointing to Brown NOT being the bone-head that people initially made him out to be.
4. By proxy, Bush was resonsible for the horrible response of FEMA to the Katrina disaster.


However... Katrina would have been infinitely LESS disastrous had Nagin simply exemplified ANY kind of leadership and intelligence in preparing for the hurricane. He did NOTHING and people died as a direct result.
Talk about unqualified! Nagin did nothing but work for Cox Cable Company before being elected Mayor. He's a total idiot, but nobody is allowed to say that because it'd be politically incorrect.

Already done.
Read my responses to your posts...
Specifically my responses to your allegations that FEMA would have had to micro-manage to do their job...
But somehow, I'm betting that err on your part will be ignored in future responses...


What evidence would that be? (regarding your claim on point #3 on "some evidence pointing to...")

And may I say that I congratulate you on admitting the start of point #3: "Bush was wrong to appoint Brown as head of FEMA".
I have been trying to drive that point home, and every response from you up until now has made a serious effort to avoid that point.


In part, yes.


I agree with this assessment.
I also feel compelled to add that if you replace "Nagin" with "Brown" in your above comments, and replace "work for Cox Cable Company" with "being a horse judge", you'll get an equally true assessment of Brown's failure...

Both made serious mistakes which cost a lot of people their lives...

And as a side-note on the "evacuation" issue, I think both Katrina and the subsequent Houston storm / evacuation taught some lessons on the capability of "evacuation" of a city.
The whole issue where people sat for hours in their cars just to move a few miles forward, sometimes running out of gas?
Hopefully our governments are giving serious consideration to how to effectively and efficiently "evacuate" a city, if need be...

Neither of them should have been in the position they were in. But Brown is a lawyer, and had actually been involved in other "civic" organizations and leadership. He SHOULD have been better equipped than he was. In addition, I personally believe that ALL of FEMA's post-9/11 energies were spent on terrorist attack response, and none of it was spent on natural disaster response. That was obvious enough.

But Brown's bungling did NOT directly relate to deaths in New Orleans, as did Nagin's.


As per the traffic jams... Why did they NOT open the in-bound lanes of the interstate for out-going traffic from New Orleans? STUPID!

As a former military officer, let me tell you that there is a HUGE difference inbetween leading a "civic" organization, and leading an organization where people die if you make a mistake.
And you'll note who they got as the replacement for Brown when he stepped down...

Seriously. It doesn't take much to "lead" a group when your style of leadership centers around being concerned about how much traffic time you have to spend in preps for the evening meal.
(Do you need me to link you to that story?
Or can we just agree that Brown was an idiot. Thorough idiot.
And that trying to claim he had "leadership" experience doesn't really address the issue of whether or not he had what it takes to be a GOOD leader...)

My time in the Navy showed me "leaders" who people followed because they wanted to follow, and "leaders" who had people follow them out of morbid curiousity. From the looks of things, Brown was clearly the latter...


And whose fault is that?
Whose fault is it that he wasn't better equipped?


Gee. And who directed THAT focus?


Yes. It did.
If you think people didn't die in waiting to be rescued, then you are seriously unaware of what happened after Katrina hit.


Don't know... Incompetence?
But then again, I think we have thoroughly agreed on that...

Jefferson, you are arguing something very much off topic. The point is Bush was informed before Katrina that the levees would not withstand a CAT 5 hurricane. Yet after the fact Bush speaks to the media and says he didn't know that the levees would break.

Flat out lie. He was informed to the contrary and the lie was caught on tape.