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Old 06-28-2006, 06:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Freedom, and isn't this the worst Congress ever?
I didn't really think our current Congress was that bad, but they sure do have a way of proving me wrong.

This month we've had two completely awful Constitutional Amendments proposed, and they've actually met with amazing support in our Congress. These Amendments are an amendment to ban flag desecration and an amendment to ban same-sex marriage. Both attempts at amending the Constitution failed, but both found more votes for them than against.

It truly baffles me that these amendments received more than a combined total of two votes across all of Congress. In my opinion, this is evidence that our Congress is in a far worse state that I had imagined.

Am I mistaken, or are we supposed to be the land of the free? Aren't we supposed to protect people's freedoms, only taking them away when absolutely necessary? Does no one in Congress actually understand this? Apparently 283 members of the house and 66 members of the Senate do not understand it.

To hear politicians talk about stripping a freedom from every American, you'd think it's is no different from flying a flag at half mast. "We're doing it to honor the troops." Ah yes, let's take away a freedom from every American because we want to honor the troops. Let's stay in Iraq because we want to support the troops. Let's leave Iraq to support the troops. I bet people wouldn't mind me suggesting that we enslave everybody in Iraq if it supports the troops. The truth is: our government has no business denying any freedom to anybody unless that freedom is injurious to someone else. Showing some support for our troops is a nice gesture, but stripping freedom from the American people is unnacceptable.

Ask any member of Congress if he or she supports freedom, and the answer will always be "yes", but those same members of Congress are ready and willing to start chipping away at the freedoms of the people in any fashion we let them. Our laws need to help people and preseve their freedoms; the only valid reason to deny any freedom any time is to help someone. Let's deny murder because it helps the victim. Let's deny assault, rape, and theivery.

But flag burning? Who is helped by throwing a flag desecrater in jail? No one. Who is helped by stopping two people of the same sex from getting married? No one. These laws are designed to punish, not to help. They punish people who haven't hurt anybody else.

The reason these amendments exist is because somebody sees people desecrating the flag, and he gets angry. Burning the flag doesn't hurt anybody, but you can't understand that when you're angry. When you're angry, all you want to do is punish the guy who's making you angry. So you take away a freedom. The same thing is true with same-sex marriage. Somebody doesn't like homosexuality, and Americans lose freedom.

We need to stop punishing people and start helping people. If denying a freedom isn't going to help someone, then our government has no business denying it. That our current Congress does not know this simple rule brings me great shame.
-Jaxian
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Old 06-28-2006, 07:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian
I didn't really think our current Congress was that bad, but they sure do have a way of proving me wrong.

This month we've had two completely awful Constitutional Amendments proposed, and they've actually met with amazing support in our Congress. These Amendments are an amendment to ban flag desecration and an amendment to ban same-sex marriage. Both attempts at amending the Constitution failed, but both found more votes for them than against.

It truly baffles me that these amendments received more than a combined total of two votes across all of Congress. In my opinion, this is evidence that our Congress is in a far worse state that I had imagined.

Am I mistaken, or are we supposed to be the land of the free? Aren't we supposed to protect people's freedoms, only taking them away when absolutely necessary? Does no one in Congress actually understand this? Apparently 283 members of the house and 66 members of the Senate do not understand it.

To hear politicians talk about stripping a freedom from every American, you'd think it's is no different from flying a flag at half mast. "We're doing it to honor the troops." Ah yes, let's take away a freedom from every American because we want to honor the troops. Let's stay in Iraq because we want to support the troops. Let's leave Iraq to support the troops. I bet people wouldn't mind me suggesting that we enslave everybody in Iraq if it supports the troops. The truth is: our government has no business denying any freedom to anybody unless that freedom is injurious to someone else. Showing some support for our troops is a nice gesture, but stripping freedom from the American people is unnacceptable.

Ask any member of Congress if he or she supports freedom, and the answer will always be "yes", but those same members of Congress are ready and willing to start chipping away at the freedoms of the people in any fashion we let them. Our laws need to help people and preseve their freedoms; the only valid reason to deny any freedom any time is to help someone. Let's deny murder because it helps the victim. Let's deny assault, rape, and theivery.

But flag burning? Who is helped by throwing a flag desecrater in jail? No one. Who is helped by stopping two people of the same sex from getting married? No one. These laws are designed to punish, not to help. They punish people who haven't hurt anybody else.

The reason these amendments exist is because somebody sees people desecrating the flag, and he gets angry. Burning the flag doesn't hurt anybody, but you can't understand that when you're angry. When you're angry, all you want to do is punish the guy who's making you angry. So you take away a freedom. The same thing is true with same-sex marriage. Somebody doesn't like homosexuality, and Americans lose freedom.

We need to stop punishing people and start helping people. If denying a freedom isn't going to help someone, then our government has no business denying it. That our current Congress does not know this simple rule brings me great shame.
Maybe your not being able to understand congress is that you equate gay marriage and flag burning with freedoms. They are not.
Old 06-28-2006, 07:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Maybe your not being able to understand congress is that you equate gay marriage and flag burning with freedoms. They are not.
Excuse me? Flag burning is purely a form of symbolic protest and is therefore protected under the free speech clause of the first amendment. Whether or not you see this is not important. The law sees this and the courts including the Supreme Court has upheld flag burning as a form of expression protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution numerous times.

And Jaxian nice post. I find it truely discusting that the flag burning ban failed by only one vote. It should have been a land-slide in turning it down, if the Congress was truely for freedom.
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Last edited by Katczinsky; 06-28-2006 at 07:56 PM.
Old 06-28-2006, 08:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
Maybe your not being able to understand congress is that you equate gay marriage and flag burning with freedoms. They are not.
Rights don't need protecting when people support their existence.
Rights need protecting when people DO NOT like them...

You may not like flag burning, but it is a first amendment protected free speech issue.
You may not like gay marriage, but marriage IS a right and any restrictions upon marriage need to be justified.

If we don't protect these freeedoms unless the majority agrees, then we are not a land of "freedom" at all.
We are a land ruled by mob rule with the masses deciding rights...
"(Gay marriage) is a debate about whether you think gay people are part of the human condition or just a random fetish."
-- Jon Stewart
"Please don't judge others by your own standards."
-- Garysher
Old 06-28-2006, 08:03 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katczinsky
Excuse me? Flag burning is purely a form of symbolic protest and is therefore protected under the free speech clause of the first amendment. Whether or not you see this is not important. The law sees this and the courts including the Supreme Court has upheld flag burning as a form of expression protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution numerous times.

And Jaxian nice post. I find it truely discusting that the flag burning ban failed by only one vote. It should have been a land-slide in turning it down, if the Congress was truely for freedom.
Do you put up a flag on Memorial Day or the Fourth of July?
Old 06-28-2006, 08:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
Do you put up a flag on Memorial Day or the Fourth of July?
The point is not whether or not people put a flag up.
The point is whether or not they believe in OTHER PEOPLE having a right to disrespect something even though you may have nothing but respect for it.
"(Gay marriage) is a debate about whether you think gay people are part of the human condition or just a random fetish."
-- Jon Stewart
"Please don't judge others by your own standards."
-- Garysher
Old 06-28-2006, 09:49 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66
The point is not whether or not people put a flag up.
The point is whether or not they believe in OTHER PEOPLE having a right to disrespect something even though you may have nothing but respect for it.
If an amendment is put in the constitution banning burning of the American flag, OTHER PEOPLE will have to obey or take the consequences. I hope it passes eventually. Even if they don't pass the law, I can still punch a person in the nose who I see burning one in protest. I will have to pay the consequences. I always keep a couple hundred in my wallet for bail money.
Old 06-28-2006, 10:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
If an amendment is put in the constitution banning burning of the American flag, OTHER PEOPLE will have to obey or take the consequences. I hope it passes eventually. Even if they don't pass the law, I can still punch a person in the nose who I see burning one in protest. I will have to pay the consequences. I always keep a couple hundred in my wallet for bail money.


You do strike me as the type of guy who "thinks" with his fists...
"(Gay marriage) is a debate about whether you think gay people are part of the human condition or just a random fetish."
-- Jon Stewart
"Please don't judge others by your own standards."
-- Garysher
Old 06-28-2006, 10:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
If an amendment is put in the constitution banning burning of the American flag, OTHER PEOPLE will have to obey or take the consequences. I hope it passes eventually. Even if they don't pass the law, I can still punch a person in the nose who I see burning one in protest. I will have to pay the consequences. I always keep a couple hundred in my wallet for bail money.
I got your back, I got no use for someone that burns a flag (unless it is no longer fit to fly and is being destroyed in a dignifed way)

"Title 36, Section 176, of the United States Code states: "No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America;"
"We could not now take time for further search or consideration, our victuals being much spent, especially our beer." - William Bradford



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Old 06-28-2006, 10:24 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Beside being a step backwards on rights and being a waste of time for our congress that has better things to do... I think the flag burning amendment would be stupid because it would be ineffective.

http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003585.html
When the president talks to God
Do they drink near beer and go play golf
While they pick which countries to invade
Which Muslim souls still can be saved?
I guess god just calls a spade a spade
When the president talks to God
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