Defending the Truth

yeah these guys thought it was "just a piece of cloth"

What those guys think the flag is doesn't change the fact that it is just a piece of cloth.

I don't deny that those guys associated meaning with the flag. But do you deny that some people hold a less favorable interpretation of the meaning of the flag? And certainly not all citizens believe the common interpretation of its meaning is a good thing. Do you think that we should not give those people the freedom to express their political opinions or that expressing those opinions does not include allowing them to burn the flag?

Why should an individual not be allowed to use his own property as he sees fit, to protest as he deems necessary? Is it simply because some people hold a deep respect for the flag? Heck, we could make it illegal to disrespect the cross if that's the case. But I think we shouldn't be preventing people from using their own property to express their own beliefs simply because the majority holds different beliefs.

No it is because no one person owns the flag, it is the people's flag. It is the Nation's Flag. It is sacred, and should not be abused. I agree that you do have the right to abuse it, but I also feel morally obligated to stomp your pathetic ass if you do so.

I am preparing to go to afghanistan, and I am fully prepared to kill every living thing that even remotely resembles an enemy of that flag. This is the sort of thing that squishy, spoiled civilians who have never had to sacrifice and fight for their country will never understand.

But why should such a thing exist? Why should the nation decide that weaving colored fabric together in a certain fashion creates something which thenceforth must be respected? It sounds good when we say we're creating the "people's flag", but what that really means is that people who have flags are denied the freedom to use them as they see fit.

Depending on the situation, I might agree that you are morally justified. However, that moral justification can only come from the fact that more people will somehow be harmed if you fail to stomp my pathetic ass than if you do. And if my pathetic ass is simply burning the flag because I have different beliefs than you, then I don't think you're justified at all; I don't think you're justified anymore than a Christian beating up a Muslim for disrespecting God.

Are you fully prepared to kill women and children then? What about protesters who burn the flag in the streets but don't really pose any threat to you? Would you kill them too? I think you'd be dishonorably discharged from the military if you did that and word got out. And I think you would have taken the lives of people who didn't deserve to die.

I think you're really going to Afghanistan fully prepared to kill only those living things who present a threat to someone else's life, only armed and dangerous enemies in situations where it's kill or let someone else be killed.

I understand that you are putting your life in danger to support a cause you strongly believe in, that you're doing it to help protect people in America, people you've never met. And that's a great cause. But good deeds, no matter how good they may be, do not make it okay to engage in unrelated bad ones; it doesn't make it okay to beat up someone who burns the flag out of disrespect.

It is okay to say that I could never understand what you believe the flag means without going to war. Maybe I couldn't. And it is okay to say that you feel the flag is sacred, and that I could never understand how sacred you view it without going to war. But this doesn't change the fact that this is just an opinion of meaning held by some people.

Although I can't understand what the flag means to you, I can understand that the flag means something different to someone else, and that no matter how strongly you love the flag, that doesn't mean you should be allowed to harm someone who has burned his own piece of cloth in an attempt to protest that which he believes is wrong.

This is how I feel about the topic as well.

I haven't responded to this topic, so I think it is time that I offer my two cents. When I first was going to answer the poll question I was going to answer No. However, wehn I reread it, the question posed was should flag burning be protected by the First Amendment. Yes it should. The First Amendment protects the freedom of speech, and political dissent is the most important of all speech that should be protected. Some may argue that the burning of a flag is an action, and not speech, however, I agree that it is a method of expression, and thus should be protected.

Having said that, if a Constitutional Amendment were to be passed by the Congress seeking to prohibit the desecration of the flag, I, like tadpole, would be one if its strongest supporters.

Like tadpole, I have served in the armed forces. (GO ARMY) It was here that I was taught the the flag is a living symbol. As a member of a color guard and a color sergeant I have much respect for the flag. You see we are taught that the flag represents the ideals of this nation, the belief in liberty and justice for all. The flag is used to drape the coffins of the soldiers, sailors, and airman who have died in service to their country. The Red of the Flag represents the blood spilled in service to her, the white represents justice, and the blue represents valor.

For those who would burn the flag, I say that it is one thing to do so amidst a crowd of those who support your views. If you truly wish to make a statement about your beliefs in this country I suggest trying to burn that flag at Fort Bragg, or Fort Hood, or Fort Sill or any other military installation. Don't be a coward, if you want to burn it, burn it where it means the most, not where it means the least.

So many of you who are more liberal than I, have made statements regarding the flag as being nothing more than a piece of fabric. So why was it that Georgia, South Carolina, and Mississippi have taken such a beating for the flying of the Confederate flag or having it as part of thier state flag? Its just a piece of cloth. I am sorry, but those of you of the liberal persuasion who use that argument are hypocrites. You use it in support of the right to burn a flag, yet in the very next breath ignore when it comes to the Confederate flags. You can't have it both ways, it either means something or its a piece of fabric, it cannot be both.

Furthermore, if the flag is just a piece of fabric, then its burning has no meaning and therefore it is not an expressive act and can be legislated against and not protected under the first amendment. Once again, you can't have it both ways. Obviously the flag is more than just a piece of fabric.

dmk

It sort of freaks me out that you military men have this button that can be pushed in regards to a symbol like the flag.

We have a lot of buttons that can be pushed that turn us off and on. The Army invested 5 years of training in me with infantry tactics. I know how to shoot, move and communicate. I have been taught to kill with everything from a AT-4 (antitank weapon) to a P-38 (can opener).

Serving in the military, learning the history of my unit, the men who were heros, and those who died left an impression. To them and all so many others who gave their lives for this country, first to become a nation, and later to protect its survival, the flag, this country, and its people mean a lot. To those who haven't served, you wouldn't have a clue.

dmk

Well, it sounds like the "training" worked

This is good to hear, and I agree.

The flag represents these things to you. Perhaps it represents these things to you because the army has trained you that this is its meaning, but it doesn't really matter why you believe it means this. The reality is that it doesn't "mean" anything at all. It's a piece of fabric.

People may be reminded of certain values when they see the flag. But this isn't a world of literature we're living in, this is reality. And in reality, the flag is nothing more than a piece of fabric.

Why should they do that? So that the people at Fort Bragg or Fort Hood or Fort Still can cause physical harm to them for using their own property as they see fit? Do you really think the people of any of those Forts are justified in harming an individual who has no desire to harm anyone else? Is it truly moral to hurt someone whose intentions are good and who is no threat to another?

You may disagree with the statement that someone else is making when you see that person burn the flag. But you are not justified in harming that person just because you disagree, and neither are the people of any of those Forts. And you are also not justified in supporting a denial of that person to express his or her disagreement by using his or her property in the fashion that he or she sees fit.

This statement is absurd. Have I once suggested that people should not have the right to fly confederate flags? I have said nothing of the sort. It is just the opposite in fact: people should have every right to fly confederate flags, and I would fight to protect that right and oppose any attempt to deny them that right. So please do not misrepresent our opinions on this subject in the future.

Now, if someone is flying a confederate flag to show his support for the south, saying the south was right or the south should have one, then I certainly disagree, and I'd certainly question that person's morality. But the exact same would be true if someone is burning the flag in order to show that the US is a bunch of evil people or something. But just because I disagree doesn't mean I should be allowed to take away that person's right to express his opinion using his own property as he sees fit.

As you said, burning the flag is a method of expression. It means only what the people viewing it believe it to mean. The same is true of words. They mean only what the person hearing them believes them to mean. Because both are forms of expression, both should be protected by the first amendment.

This would be different if the flag were more than just a piece of fabric owned by someone. If that were the case, then perhaps the person is burning more than his own property. But I have a hard time even explaining this because it doesn't even make sense to think of the flag as something more than a piece of fabric owned by an individual.

The bottom line is that the flag is somebody's property, and that person should be allowed to use his property as he sees fit, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

I hold a deep respect for those people who fought to make us a nation, who fought to protect its survival, and who fight to better the lives of the peolpe of this country. Even in the times when I disagree that the war we are fighting does one of those things, I still consider those very good reasons to fight.

I too would like to think that I would fight to protect freedom or the life of an innocent person. But what I would not fight for is the flag. And to put it simply, I completely disagree with anyone who would fight or go to war to protect the flag. Fight to protect people's lives, and fight to protect freedom and the values of this nation. If you're fighting to make sure that the American flags of the world are respected, then in my opinion, you're fighting for the wrong reason.

If the flag is in danger, I could personally care less, and if someone tried to harm another person because that person is burning the flag, I would protect the flag burner.

It is a piece of fabric. You may have been trained by the military that it holds meaning, and maybe people do think of that meaning when they see it. But that doesn't mean it's wrong to burn it, to express your disagreement with those values in that fashion, or any other fashion you see fit, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

Heck, let's change it to plain green flag for all I care. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is the people and freedom of those people. I may not understand what it is like to be in the military, but that doesn't mean that I can't understand that it is only your opinion that the flag is something special. This nation is special, not the piece of fabric that symbolizes it.