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Budget and Taxes Do you feel that raising taxes will help solve the debt of the United States? Are you a fan of Reaganomics?

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Old 01-06-2008, 06:57 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
Well i don't think that socialism is meant to tax the middle class. Rather it is the richest segments of society that gets taxed the heaviest.. That, among other things, means that they super rich will NOT be getting the tax breaks offered by conservative pro-business governments.
Oh yes, tax the rich, well each every year the amount of money it takes to be considered rich gets lower and lower. We hear it all the time, how the Republicans favor tax cuts for the rich, well I do not even make a 6 figure salary yet, however, I received a nice portion of those so-called tax cuts for the rich.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
Socialism is a venture to re-distribute that wealth which is concentrated in the hands of the rich. I have no idea why you take socialism to mean anything else.
I take my meaning directly from the words used by those who developed the idea. From each according to his ability to each according to his need. Socialism is defined as an economic system in which the basic means of production are primarily owned and controlled collectively, usually by government under some system of central planning. For socialism to exist there can be no private property, no individual ownership, all things belong to the whole.

No one is willing to give up that in which they have created, whether it be a business, or a work of their mind. So to go from a free society in which we live to a socialist society will require force. Socialist love to say that no true socialism has ever existed, not in the USSR nor in China. They are right, because when people have freedom to own and create their own works, they must be compelled to give up what they own. They are compelled by force, but power corrupts, and absolute power given to the elite who know better for us corrupts absolutely. Thus this is why socialism will never exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
Are you telling me that insurance companies are "trustworthy"?? The regulations put in place seem to be for the protection of the population. Insurance companies are worried about their BOTTOM LINES. That means SOMEBODY gotta lose.. unfortunately in such a system it is the sick that lose.
No, insurance companies are not trustworthy, but then neither is the government. Before the break through in technology in medicine, there was a time when we operated under a single payer system. If someone needed to go to the doctor, they themselves paid the bill. Today we have a third party pay system, whether it be insurance or government. For all the complaints about HMOs and PPOs it was government regulation that created them and it was government regulation that created the system in which they must work. And while yes insurance companies worry about the bottom line, they also have to be able to provide the most benefits to the majority of the people within their system. Sometimes that calls for limiting what procedures a doctor may perform, or what test a doctor may order, or what drug a doctor can prescribe for any given ailment. Guess what, they got all that from the government system, for that is exactly how Medicaid/Medicare works.

It is government that has placed restriction on the types of policies an insurance company might offer. You see, for someone who is young and a male, there are certain coverages in insurance they do not need, i.e. GYN/OB. However, can insurance companies create specific plans targetted at certain groups???? No, according to government regulation they must provide the same basic coverage to all members of a group. So there you have it, when you pay that premium on your insurance policy you are paying not only for coverage you might need in the future, but also coverage you will never need. Government regulation does this so that the cost can be spread out equally amongst everybody. Whether that is right or wrong, that is one of the restrictions place upon insurance. Another is the fact that a majority of the states do not allow insurance to be provide from outside the state. Again, this cause a disruption in the cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
I think that giving the companies a free hand will cause more havoc and misery. They are after all much more intersted in how much money they make than they are about the health and wellbeing of those they insure.
That is true, but in a free market the people have the right to choose, and if a company develops a reputation for not providing good services, people have the ability to switch to a company that does. You see that is the beauty of the free market system, if you do not like the services of Company A, you can take you business to Company B or C or D. That is what keeps companies honest. For if their reputation causes them to lose money, they cannot compete with the other companies.

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Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
Well some people abuse the system. The point you seem to miss however is that in a socialist setup, such people cannot proudly walk around with their benefits. The reason for this is that the VAST MAJORITY will be honest workers that contribute to the system. This creates a certain level of civic consciousness that makes each and every taxpayer concerned about how the money is being used. There will be a civil movement to prevent freeloaders.
Really???? How, remember from each according to ability to each according to need. Socialism seeks to eliminate all private ownership. Socialism seeks to make all equal in the end. Slight problem. When you are sick or injured you need a doctor a hell of a lot more than you need a garbageman, but if in the end both are equal, then why would someone become a doctor when the can make the same just hauling garbage???


Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
I think that you are describing your current system. Because every single american DOESN"T have access to basic rights like food, shelter, healthcare and education, it is quite clear that you SOME kids have better chances than the others. THe kid born in a rich home with a trustfund has a better chance of being LITERATE than one born in a slum. However if education was free, then this difference in life chances would not occur. Same thing with healthcare. If healthcare were free, than the slum dweller would have the same life chances as a rich kid.
The only basic right to food that anyone has is obtained from that food in which they can provide themselves. From what they can grow or hunt. For if they need to get their food from someone else, it is no longer a right. Instead they must enter in to the system of trade and either trade items they possess to the food grower for food or pay them a certain fee to obtain their services. The same is true of housing, and healthcare. Sorry but if you cannot provide something for yourself but instead must barter for it, it is not a right. It may be a need, however, for every need their is a price that you must pay.

We have a free education system in this country, and the only thing it is good for is providing teachers with jobs and bureaucrats a place to earn a paycheck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
It is PRECISLY this type of inequality that prevents the non-elite from tbecoming the elite. Circumstances are HEAVILY weighted against the ghetto dweller. The very thing you say socialism will cause is ALREADY THERE as a result of your current system.
Yet there are stories all the time about people growing up in poverty and striking out on their own and making it big. One is only limited by what one can achieve. Are there obstacles, of course there are, but those who are determined can over come them. You see when you create a culture of entitlement, you end up with people believing that they are entitled, and thus they do not seek to achieve anything more than what they can convince others to give them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
I think you confuse a lot of things here. Nobody is talking about the government deciding what clothes you wear, and what car you drive. It doesn't even mean the government will instruct you on how you lead your life.

THE ONLY THING we are talking about is free healthcare and free education. Both of these things are not things FORCED upon a population, but rather MADE AVAILABLE to a population that needs it. SO it will mean charging more taxes. Well you already pay taxes to fund insane wars.. why not try spending those taxes on making your country TRULY EGALITARIAN.
Because you are looking for equality of outcome and not equality of opportunity. I am sorry but we are not all equal. Some people are smarter, others more athletic, some taller, some shorter, some thinner, some fatter, some pretty and some ugly. There will always be inequality, but when you allow for equality of opportunity, that allows everyone to have a chance. Some may make it, others may fail, however, that just that some must work harder than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
YOur statements about socialism are just plain incorrect. Sure the scandinavian countries are smaller and thus easier to manage, but what you say is just not true.

The fact is also that the NEED for education and healthcare is EQUAL FOR ALL HUMANS. there is no complex method of deducing the "need" of the people. All the NEED is EQUAL ACCESS to to healeth and education.
And there is equal access. No hospital in this country can turn away a sick individual without treating them. That is a law. You are confusing care with coverage, a big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
The fact remains that only hard work pays EVEN IN THIS SCENARIO. Having the option to be cured when you are sick does NOT give you incentive to sit at home. It cannot. YOu cannot survive on free healthcare. Likewise education REQUIRES EFFORT> If you don't pass then you squander your chance, and nobody is responsible for that.
Your right, effort is required. Hard work does pay. But that requires taking responsibility for ones actions.

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Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
You are makjng it sound like socialism will have beggars coming out of the woodwork like zombies and turning eveyrbody else into needy zombies. That's just not true.
How is it not true. When there is no incentive to create why would someone create???? For the betterment of fellow man. Sorry that is a benefit of a capitalistic system, in the socialistic system it just means having more taken from you. Remember, in socialism there is no private property, so it is not you who creates something but everyone. Why would anyone want to work under that proposition. It is not rationale.


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Old 01-06-2008, 07:59 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by teethandclaws View Post
True, and we don't know where that money goes. Like state and town taxes one would assume would go to the needs of the states, like road upkeep and whatnot, but too much goes into paychecks for the bureaucracy, and here anyway, the roads are shite and the taxes are high.
It's the same in the U.K.

I expect it is the same in every country in the world.
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