Defending the Truth

The market really is an amazingly resilient creature... People fear it too much me thinks.

I disaggree... I think that privatized accounts would be a good thing in the long run. You can't take a momentary glimpse at the market and make a determination like the one you are making. You have to look at it over the last 30 years or more.

1) Social Security is still running a surplus. 2) The stock market has been flat for 7 years. 3) If Social Security had been in the stock market for the last 10 years and you retired today you would live the rest of your life in poverty.

My former brother-in-law and his wife go there often. He loves the game Let It Ride, and she loves the slots. I'm with you; I love Texas Hold 'Em. I'm also pretty good. The nearest casino to me is also a Native American run one-Potowatomi Casino in Milwaukee. I love the tournaments there.
I attended my grand niece's graduation in Memphis two weeks ago and had time to take my Dad to Tunica. I won $14,000 at a $4/$8 no limit table and didn't push my luck any further. I also would love to play in the WSOP.I have put together a Hold 'Em pamphlet that I would love to give you. Send me an e-mail and I will return it to you.

Thanks Joe! I'd love to have it . tyreay@hotmail.com

I just want to note that I hope everyone realizes that morality also extends to whom you give your money to, not just how you personally behave. If you aid a corporation with questionable morality just to make a buck you, yourself, are also engaging in immoral behavior in my opinion.

Some people seem to completely disconnect morality with money and I find that very strange (and convenient).

With this war the stock market has been full of blood money. Do you own mutual funds??? You are probably part of the problem.

Good poit, Hevusa; but then again- who are we to measure morality in others? We were all raised with different values- obviously. Can any of us truthfully state that we are the example to which all minkind must be measured? I never will say that about myself. But then again; I am not sending this message from the inside of a penal institution.
Making money in and of itself is not a crime. Doing it illegally is. Were all the employees of say, ENRON, all vicious criminals who deserve punishment ( or jail) because they contributed to their own 401K stock retirement plans? Or do we blame( I do) the executives of companies such as this for the criminal activity that occured.
Please do not assume that all people whom have the desire for achieving financial freedom are bad or immoral. We (or at least most of us) just want the same things from life that everyone does; and have made the effort to do so.You're going to have to explain your apparent distaste for mutual funds as I do not see the correlation between ownership of such shares (for the record; I do own shares in several funds)and morality.Is this a personal issue, or have you discovered that all mutual funds are illegal in some form?

I think that most Americans are pretty good people. They are, on the whole, friendly, good hearted folks who want to do the right thing in life. They wouldn't support immoral behavior from their neighbors or in their communities, and I don't think they would accept a paycheck if questionable morality was involved of any kind.

Past that there seems to be a complete moral disconnect when it comes to making money by extracurricular means.

In a capitalist "free market" the BIGGEST power a citizen has is whom he gives his money to, even above a citizens power of voting I'm afraid. If our regular "American" sense of morality was applied to our relationship with money the power truly would be with the people.

There is little doubt there is a lot of blood money floating around the market since the war started. Just look at the juxtapostion between the market's climb and the dollar's steep drop against every freaking currency in the world. Then there are the companies that try to beat the environmental laws just to make a buck. Or the ones that treat animals as if they weren't even alive and that we like eating shit. Or the medical and pharmacuetical companies bacially scamming people. The list goes on...

Own stocks??
Own mutual funds???

YES!!, there certainly IS morality involved with the stockmarket and if you engage with it financially you are also involved morally. Most moral Americans choose to turn a blind eye...

Greed is an evil enemy of peace and morality.

I agree with some of your first point, Hevusa. I also believe that most Americans are decent, hard-working people who want to do the right thing in life.I'm afraid I disagree with most of your other statements, though.
Let's look at the word 'capatalist'. Does it not mean "one who capatalizes from other people or situations"? This is the American way of life. Like it or not, there will always be the "haves" and the "have nots" in America.That's just fact.
Would you prefer a communist or socialist way of life? Where the basic needs of the people should be provided by the government? What can actually be defined as the basic needs outside of food ,water, and shelter? What about the word "freedom"? To charge the government with responsibilty such as having to provide these needs could only be attempted- I don't believed that it could be achieved in America- at the cost of our personal freedoms.
Socks and Mutual Funds? Do we not support them financially when we purchase the products or services they provide? Are we wrong to purchase cough medicine for our children when they have a cold? Maybe I'm mistaking your definition of immoral behavior in these instances based on ownership of stock in these companies and purchasing the products the provide. If so, I apologize. But aren't the sale of these very products the lifeblood of the company?
Hevusa, I think your definition(s) of morality may be too broad- based. Can the only truly moral people (by your definition) in America be the Amish?
As far as your comment on the dollar's drop against other currencies in the world; that touched a spot with me; as I also invest in currencies. The very FOREX market (foreign exchange) uses the American dollar as its cornerstone. There are many trends that affect this very market, not all of these trends are war associated.
I'll get off the soapbox now, it is apparent that we disagee on the morality/money issue. However, I do believe a person's viewpoint to be of importance, so we can talk on this further.

There will always be an upper class, and there really isn't a problem there UNLESS they are achieving this status through immoral means. All too often we support ruthless and immoral companies with our money with a blind eye to morality (the crap food places, the gas guzzling car, the stock market blood money, warehouses that hire only part time employees to avoid paying benefits, etc). The bottom line of the company and the consumers wallet are actually trumping MORALS in this country.

What is it going to take??? The clergy talking about the morality of money?
"Thou shall not spend your money immorally"

This doesn't happen... because there is a COMPLETE disconnect between personal morality and how you use your money.

Yes, I would prefer a social democracy where the very basic needs are taken care of like: health, education, maturnity leave, vacation leave and retirement. To make our society as strong as possible the above should be viewed as basic human rights.
Past that the open market as it is would work great as long as people understood the moral choices they make with their money.

I see absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work in America considering we supposedly have the most robust economy in the world. The only hinder is the budget we allot our military. One could argue (and very sucessfully at that) that places with social democracies actually offer MORE personal freedoms than we have here in the states.

YES! This is what I was getting at but forgot to mention directly. Every purchase you make from a company at every store should have that personal sense of morality attached. Buy lightbulbs from a company that has a crap environmental stance??? Then you are a part of that immorality as well.

YES!!! Put your money on the cold medicine company that you feel behaves in the most moral way possible, using natural ingredients, treating their employees with respect, etc. I do this with EVERY item I purchase. If there is a more sound alternative I give them my money.


Absolutely not! As I stated I think most Americans are good hearted people. All you have to do is think of yourself in the capitalist chain of events and see how your money is negatively impacting the world around you. Some simple changes in the way you spend your dough would go an incredibly long way especially if we all banded together and had a sense of morality in regards to our money.[/quote]

That is all I can ask my friend. Hopefully the next time you are checking out at the store you start seeing all the moral choices you could be making but are not.