You are mistaken. Go here to see how you've been deceived. You probably won't accept that page, so here's another. But it's an old argument in which you will probably never accept the truth. After all, it doesn't matter what the facts or the truth is, those of your generation (a condemned generation, btw) will continue to deceive and be deceived. Continue in that direction to your peril.

I have never advocated a theocracy for the United States. I believe that we should return to our roots and be submissive to the laws of God.

Allah and YHWH are totally different. Allah is the "Moon God" of Mohammad. This page should be of some enlightment.

President Adams disagrees. "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." from a treaty signed by said president. Also "Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:
'I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!'"

Thomas Jefferson disagrees. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

James Madison disagrees. In 1785, he wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments:"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Ben Franklin disagrees. He wrote in his autobiography: "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself." One of his friends ,Dr. Priestley, wrote about Franklin in Priestley's autobiography: "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers".

Thomas Paine disagrees. In his The Age of Reason he wrote: "Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "

Observer, all you have to offer are biased and activist websites or editorials. It is established fact that our founding fathers were mostly Deist. And most of them expressed the strict importance of a seperation between church and state. The United States is a country of immigrants, and a haven for freedom of religion. To make laws establishing the Christian God and its principles would be going against this doctrine and the First Amendment of the Constitution. You can't make other people be submissive of the laws of God; that is a reason for the opposition of the thrown of England and for our declaration of independence. Many American patriots would go down fighting before they would see your wish for our laws to force people to be submissive to the law of your God.

And I don't care what your blog website says, it is established fact that many leading theologians and leaders in both religions acknowlege Allah and the Christian God are one of the same. It is just that one religion follows the teachings of one profit Mohammad, and the other under Jesus. The only difference between "Allah" and "God", or "YHWH" is language. In fact, Christian and Jewish Arabic speakers say "Allah".

Because they were not implementing the WHOLE law, He was justified in letting her go. They let the man go and had no intention (ever) of stoning him. In essence, He was saying, "If you can't do it right, don't do it at all."

Of course. There is no way I will persuade you, anyway, nor will you persuade me.

I'm not understanding you (highlighted). Are you saying there was (possibly) a man committing adultery with the woman? What does "caught in the very act" mean to you? and taking #4 into account, you think they read her mind?


see above

I didn't mean that it was the law (that required the double-standard to be exposed). I just said that Jesus exposed their double-standard. It is perfectly obvious...for those who are able to see it.

There is a strong possibility that was exactly the case....that some had also had committed the act with her.

How do you interpret, Mal 3:6 -
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. And, Heb 13:8 -
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. He expounded the spiritual intent of God's commandments. Murder is a sin, but hatred is the spirit of murder. Adultery is a sin, but so is lust--the desire to commit adultery. (Matthew 5:21-2

Here is the Levitical law: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer AND the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10

NOW, the Bible says they caught her in the very act of adultery, yet she was the only one they were going to stone to death. They could have brought him to the stoning party, but they didn't, thus their intent was to carry out only a part of the law, not the whole law.


He let the woman go free because her accusers had not complied with the whole law. They purposely let the man go and He knew it.

What does the law say? Chapter, verse. (I'm not sure that is the law)

I follow God's law. The law says it's legal to destroy my offspring, however, I would never have an abortion. The Bible also commands Christians to obey civil authority unless it goes against the law of God. Example: if I were ordered (as in China) to abort my unborn child, I would not do it. The Schindlers, for example, resisted the government in murdering their daughter. I see your confusion, yet it isn't confusing once you understand. It is not my place to carry out God's laws, only obey them. The government exercises that authority. I am simply a subject of that government.

That is the opinion of those against the death penalty, but other studies show that to be false. Murders have increased since most states abolished the death penalty. They are re-instating it now as the statistics show otherwise.

He was referring to Roman Catholicism, not Christianity.

I know it's painful to see the truth, but here it is again. Please don't miss the last paragraph.

America’s Christian Roots
Filed under: Good Stories — Dean at 7:37 am on Thursday, June 1, 2006
52 of the 55 signers of America’s Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians. The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of Scripture, and His personal intervention.

It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society. Immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation.

Patrick Henry, who is called the firebrand of the American Revolution, is still remembered for his words, “Give me liberty or give me death.” But in current textbooks the context of these words is deleted. Here is what he actually said: “An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death.”

These sentences have been erased from our textbooks. Was Patrick Henry a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.”

Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well-worn Bible: “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator.” He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role.

On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”

Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States reaffirmed this truth when he wrote, “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”
In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the “Schoolmaster of the Nation.”

Listen to these words of Mr. McGuffey: “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.”

Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments. James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: ‘”We have staked the whole future of our new nation not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”

Today, we are asking God to bless America. But, how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him? Prior to September 11, 2001, He was not welcome in America. Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country’s Christian roots.

Source

Another page to explore.

The only reference to separation of church and state was in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists. You really do need to brush up on your history. Further, no one said that anyone would be made to submit to the laws of God. There was "freedom of religion", remember? Everyone could worship whatever god they wanted to, but the laws of the land were still based upon the 10 commandments and Christian principles. The first amendment reads: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress has not/will not make any law respecting an establishment of religion. It has NOT declared that America is a Christian nation, but it's laws are based on Christian principles. It's too bad you can't accept the truth when it's placed under your nose and too bad you can't find an UNrevised history book. I'm sure one could be found, but I'm not sure you'd accept it if you did (find one).

So, many leading theologians and leaders in both religions are deceived.

Since I can only surmise that you are not a Christian, nor have ever been, I feel I can safely say you simply cannot know that Allah and YHWH are not one and the same. Islam does not recognize Jesus (Yeshua) as the Son of God. Yet, the Old Testament testifies of Him from Genesis to Malachi. "Allah" has no son. YHWH does. Why don't you study it for yourself and quit believing something just because someone said it? To do that, you have to research both sides, weigh the facts, then decide. Kind of like figuring out who's lying. Besides, when you know Him, you know who He's not.

First, I have to question the neutrality of cites called "got-prayer" and "jeremiahproject". The quotes I have given are well known and can be found in plain text from neutral sources.

Second, you are not being responsive to any of my last post. Well, to be fair you make one claim that John Adams was referring to Catholicism, but so far, I can only see that as unfounded. Yet you ignore one vital quotation, "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." that comes from a treaty that was not only signed by the president, but ratified by the congress. Why would Congress ratify such a statement? Further, this quotation is the only one presented that was passed as law and explicitly states a view on this question and guess what... it clearly states that the US was not based on the Christian religion. So, even if you can prove that many of the founders were themselves Christian, you have not proven that the country was founded on Christian beliefs.

Now to your specific arguments.

1. Nice, claim but no warrant. His plain text says the cross which is the symbol of christianity, not just catholicism. If I am going to believe something that is contrary to the plain text I need a reason to do so.

2. This is another claim that has no warrant. Why should I believe that number is true other than the fact that some website called "got-prayer" says so? Can you give me a religiously neutral source that endorses that view?

3. First, buying scripture does not make you a christian. I bought a bible, I am not a Christian. So this evidence, even if true, holds absolutely no weight. Second, the bible was the most commonly read book at the time so it would make sense to invest in it to promote literacy. It should be noted that I have spent some significant time searching for information about this claim so I can understand the context of it, but have found nothing. Unless we can find some neutral information on this, I think it is impossible to make any honest conclusions about its meaning.

4. He says nothing of the founding of the country in this. At best this shows that he believes in a god- it does not prove he worshiped Jesus, and it does not show that he thought the US was formed on Christianity.

5. That has been erased because it is a disputed quote with no clear source. Many sources cite it as being from a speech to the house of burgesses in 1765. The fact that there are different dates to this quote show that is not accepted or provable.

6. That quote is the context of the Jefferson Bible, written by Thomas Jefferson. He wrote his own bible that removed all of the supernatural elements of Jesus' story along with any claim of Christ's divinity. He believed that those had been added by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John or as he called them, "the four evangelists". Jefferson fully believed what he considered the doctrines of Christ, which excluded any claim of divinity. Why would someone who believed Jesus was God take it upon himself to edit the bible to remove all such claims? That is not only irrational but heretical.

7. Again this is not a claim that the US was founded on Christianity. It seems more like Adam's personal view. And when compared to the treaty he signed that expressly stated that the US was not founded on Christianity, this quote is very weak. Further, again after searching for this quote for context, its origins are not very solid. I could find the quote but never with a citation. Where did Adams say this and to whom? If we cannot verify the context of what he said, or even if he said it we cannot make conclusions about it. What we do have is a verifiable, legal document signed by him that states the US was not founded on Christianity.

8. Again, this seems to be a personal opinion and not a statement about the founding of our country. I approve the bible to be read in every school. I also approve the Koran to be read in every school etc., etc. That does not mean that I believe either of those to be the inspired works of God and that does not mean I believe that those books were the foundation of our country. Further, Calvin Coolidge is not a founder of the country so even if he does believe the bible to be the inspired word of God, that is irrelevant to our discussion.

9. That quote is attributed to him but I could not find any citation that says that quote one of his published text books. I had a professor who said that he loves to drink beer, does that mean that my school loves to drink beer? No. Again, I can find no evidence that it was anything more than his personal opinion. Lincoln endorsing his books is not, as far as I can see, an endorsement of that statement. Of course, I would love to see if you can show me exactly where that quote comes from.

10. Harvard is not Congress. I went to Azusa Pacific University which has a motto of "God First". Like Harvard, APU is a private school and is free to have any religious view they wish. Again, this quote is not evidence that the US was founded on Christianity.

Bottom line, you have failed in providing traceable, reliable quotes that show the US was founded on Christianity.

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter to the Danbury Baptists.

This is the ONLY reference anyone ever made to "separation of church and state". What you believe is a lie concocted by the enemies of this nation. They fed it to you...and you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. You believe the lie because you want to believe it's true.

Did I say America was founded on Christianity? No, I didn't. I said, "America's laws are based on Christian principles." I'm a bit amazed how you can reject a whole page of quotations and dismiss them without so much a glance. But I'm sure it gets easier everytime you do it.

1. That seems to be contrary to everything I have studied in the bible. If Jesus taught us that "If you can't do it right, don't do it at all" shouldn't we not obey any law? There is no where in God's law that teaches any such view point. If you can find one, please show it.

2. I write these arguments not in an attempt to persuade you, but to persuade readers who may be undecided.

3. I am just saying that it is not clarified in the bible so we cannot make assumptions. But because this argument is irrelevant, I will assume for our sake that there was a man present.

4. But the law did require the guilty to be killed. They were not. Ergo, the law was not upheld.

5. A possibility? Yes. A strong possibility? No. There is no evidence to back up your claim. It seems as if you are looking at what is written and trying to interpret it to what fits your opinion rather than letting what is written form your opinion. Why should I believe that it is likely that those men had slept with that woman? What evidence do you have? Further, you ignored my argument that even if some had slept with her, by your own argument some had not. That would mean that they would be without that sin and would have been able to stone her. About your verse that God does not change...
"Turn from Thy burning anger and change Thy mind about doing harm to Thy people. 13“Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Thy servants to whom Thou didst swear by Thyself, and didst say to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:12-14)

6. That is the law. Is that what Jesus did? No.

7. Again, you are assuming things that are not in the bible. The bottom line is the law was not fulfilled by the group or by Jesus. The law required both to be put to death. The mob did not put both to death. Jesus did not put both to death. Are you telling me that if two men killed someone and the DA only went after one, you would oppose that prosecution because they are not fulfilling the law that requires all murderers to be punished? That is the logic you are putting forth... "If you can't do it right, don't do it at all."

8. Again you fail to answer a simple question. Let's try again. Do you think we should kill a woman and man for having adultery? Here is God's law on the subject (quote you) "Here is the Levitical law: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer AND the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10" Should the US follow God's law and kill two people for having extra marital relations? Do you think that would be better than the status quo?

9. If you follow God's law, you would support the stoning of a girl for having sex with a married man, provided it was legal to do so in the US. That is God's law. Further, since the US law goes against God's law on this topic, you should support such punishment regardless of what the US says. It amazes me how you seem to support God's law so much, but when faced with a simple question, you back down.

10. Let's see a source on that and we can discuss the method of research.