Originally Posted by garysher

Originally Posted by hot dragon

if you can find verses in the bible that support capital punishment, will you agree with me when i present verses that support things too?

or will you say "you are taking the verse out of context" or "that verse should not be interpreted literally"?

Originally Posted by Ralph

Apparently this one flew right over your head did it not? There is quite a bit of difference between vengeance and self defense, just as Jesus noted. -- Luke 11:21, "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace." Vengeance is a willful premeditated act of "revenge", taking justice into your own hands, when God clearly declares that "vengeance" belongs solely to Him, thus the need for Governments to act as God's "sword of vengeance", just as explained, in Romans chapters 12 and 13. God did not declare "there will be no vengeance taken upon the unrighteous acts of premeditation taken against any Christian", He clearly said that "HE" would revenge, not us, INDIVIDUALLY. Taking scriptures and placing your spin upon them takes them away from the context in which they were delivered.

Sadly Ralph, that is exactly what you appear to be doing, and you seem a little confused in the process.

Are you agreeing that only God can take vengeance by taking a human life?

Or are you saying that a government, any government, including the evil regimes I mentioned in my last post, has the authority to take lives on God's behalf?





If Jesus did not "expect" his apostles to protect themselves why did He issue the commission to purchase a sword when they were instructed to go into the field away from their home territory? Clearly these weapons were for self defense only, as Jesus informed them that "2" would be sufficient among their total of men (Luke 22:3, thus the use of the weapons were for defensive use only, and not offensive.

I agree self defence is a completely different context to capital punishment



Luke 10:30, clearly explains that Jesus knew thieves were awaiting the ill prepared person on any long journey. Thus the need for the apostles of Christ to purchase weapons for their evangelical journey in spreading the truth of the gospel, after His death -- Luke 22:35-38. And this is not my "interpretation" of the scriptures, this was presented as only a "clear" comprehended reading of the scriptures. Your "opinion" of whether or not life imprisonment is more important in serving mankind is just that, OPINION.

I said life imprisonment achieved the same goal as capital punishment by ensuring the criminal cannot commit any further crimes.

That isn't just opinion it's a fact.


Because, no matter how intense I look upon the revealed word of God, I can not find your "opinion" expressed anywhere by BOOK, CHAPTER, OR VERSE.

Try Exodus 20:13

Thou shall not kill

I'll be interested to see how you spin that one!






On the other hand the scriptures "declare" that it perfectly acceptable to impose the death penalty upon one found guilty of murder, as God in fact is the one that first instituted the practice thereof and commissioned man the right thereof, of imposing CAPITAL PUNISHMENT if, and when needed.-- Genes 9:5-6.

But you have agreed that was during the age of the Old Covenant?




And clearly still in practice in the "Gospel Age" as the "ultimate" punishment, as God Himself imposed it with the example shown in Acts chapter 5.

This passage doesn't describe or condone capital punishment. Infact it's unclear how these people died. If we assume they died at the hand of God, that is NOT capital punishment.

Can you offer any other scriptures to substantiate your opinions on capital punishment?


This is the very reason that "LIBERALISM" will never be effective as presented in the management of crime, for indeed, "Real Peace", is best preserved if one prepares for self defense, THROUGH A SHOW OF STRENGTH. Now, that is a clear example of OPINIONATED writing, as it is based solely upon my understanding of human nature, and not the scriptures. (R)

Originally Posted by garysher

Originally Posted by Ralph

So many misrepresentations of "Half Truths". Life imprisonment does not "guarantee" that any murderer will not or cannot murder again in prison, as in fact there are graduated instances of crime, some criminals that have lost their lives in prison for committing some lesser crime against society have clearly been victimized by "cold blooded" murderers that should have been relieved of their God Given right to exist. That is unless, you value the life of someone convicted of prostitution management or drug traffic less than the public at large. If you do, that is not very Christian of you. By what cognation of logic is it deemed right that a man serving 1-3 for some minimal offense be sentenced to death while serving this minimal term? Just what "deterrable" actions are convicted murderers afraid of to stop them from killing again, and again? What can they lose, perhaps get another life sentence added on top of the first? And we, the tax payer are to pay for their supported life, while they practice their evil traits?

Can you provide chapter and verse from the Bible that says we should NOT do that??

Or is this another one of your opinions??




Again, you present your opinion and do not back it up by scriptural observations, but still DECLARE A HALF TRUTH AS COMPLETE, like I just proved.....YOU SAID, THAT LIFE IMPRISONMENT STOPS SOMEONE FROM MURDERING AGAIN, and Declared it a fact, and I proved that it was not.

This happens so infrequently I don't see how you can seriously use it as a justification for capital punishment.

As a corollary I could point to all the occasions when an innocent man has been executed, and surely that is murder in God's eyes?






Again, if God finds it acceptable to punish those (with capital punishment) who premeditatedly have taken the life of another without due process of His righteous judgment, what Scriptures can you point to that Declares that it is WRONG? If you could, I am sure you would have pointed them out, if not I now ask you to present them. If you can not, you are guilty of presenting opinion, not the will of God presented in the Scriptures.

I have reviewed the two scriptures you provided and gave you a response in my last post - have you read it?

And again you have failed to actually "read" the scriptures presented, or you would not falsely accuse me of declaring that God presents evil governments as righteous, for they (the Scriptures) indeed declare that they (all governments) are allowed to exist only by the will of God (Romans 13:1-2), but for them to be considered a righteous Government, they must be under the control of GOOD, God fearing men, for God declares that it is their duty to punish the evil and reward the righteous (Romans 13:3-4), if they do not they are considered evil themselves but still they exist by the will of God only,and still can be used by God to do his will, even if they do not realize such. (Isaiah 19:1-2). As Jesus himself pointed out -- John 19:11. And the prophet Daniel declares that God establishes all kingdoms, both good and evil -- Daniel 2:21, 4:17

So you are suggesting that the Taliban governed Afghanistan with God's blessing and were carrying out His will when they butchered women and children in public

And Hitler's genocide against 6m Jews was also part of God's plan??

Both govts would claim to be run by God-fearing men, so presumably they meet the qualifying criteria that you posit?





As I said, please present the Book, Chapter, and verse that declares "Capital Punishment" as an unjust measure, in the eyes of God. If not, why should we listen to your opinions and dismiss clear and declarative scriptures? (R)

Originally Posted by garysher

Originally Posted by Ralph

And you try to twist the commandment of God not to "MURDER", and declare that God does not authorize, killing in any measure? You are found guilty of "Cherry Picking" a single passage of scripture and trying to let one "lone standing passage" declare something that directly "contradicts" other scriptures that were all written by the same spirit of truth. -- 2 Tim 3:16-17. As I said, the scriptures "interpret" themselves if they are but allowed to, yet, here you are taking one away from the context in which it is presented and trying to morph it to fit your "personal" political ideology. Let the scriptures interpret, "exactly" what is meant by the command, "Thous shalt not Kill", shall we, and not interpret it ourselves from OUR POINT OF VIEW?

OK let's interpret it from YOUR point of view instead Ralph!



You insist that God's command not to "murder" (New American Standard) declared in the Ten Commandments of God, therefore forbids all killings? There are many direct contradictions of scriptures, but one should be sufficient -- l Samuel 15:3, "Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and DO NOT SPARE THEM. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey". Just how in fact could God declare that ALL killing is wrong, and then command someone to do that which He has forbid? And another paradox to your logic is simple to prove. Just what were the penalties for breaking these commandments of Exodus 20? If you will but read further along, for instance Exodus 21 thur 24, you will find that the penalty for breaking these laws in some instances indeed was the "death penalty"....go figure. Again we are commanded by God to Kill someone for failing to obey the command NOT TO KILL? CAN YOU SPELL "PARADOX".

Yes I can spell paradox, and I think it would be an appropriate way to describe a lot of apparently contradictory things written in the Bible.


As far as the nonsense about the Afghanistan people, it is just that, another opinion presented by "You", and not "I". For indeed, how do "I" know just what God's intentions are with this nation, as you declare that you do.

You said that all governments were authorised by God. Are you denying that now?



I prefer to remain with what God has "revealed" His intentions to be, not what He "HAS NOT" declared, for indeed we are instructed to follow these scriptures that He has revealed and not to question what He has not revealed, again "I" am not suggesting anything, as clearly you are trying to place your "opinion" into the mouth of God, despite clear scriptural examples not to, "The "secret" things (things not revealed) belong unto the Lord our God: But, those things which are revealed belong unto "US" and to our children FOR EVER, THAT WE MAY DO THE WORKS OF THE LAW." -- Deut 29:29. (R)

Originally Posted by garysher