Defending the Truth

Ralph · 04-12-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

How about just paying attention to what Jesus is quoted as saying and following his example? I don't give a rat's ass about the old testament, we are talking about Christianity, and that comes via Jesus. How couyld capital punishment be okay with Christians? Wasn't Jesus himself executed?

Indeed, we are commanded to "pay attention" to what Jesus (who happens to be God in the flesh) has said. But you fail to address the fact of just what in fact He has said. Why would Jesus differ in the ideology of righteousness presented by Father God? Are they not one in the same? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and THE WORD WAS GOD." -- John 1:1. Thus, you will find no passage of scripture that condemns the righteous judgments of God, such as "Capital Punishment" demonstrated to still exist under the Gospel Age's "perfect law of liberty", the New Testament Covenant of Christ Jesus. -- Acts Chapter 5. As I said, one can offer all the opinions they will as to why "they" believe something to be just or unjust, but if you want to know God's will, the "ONLY" place it is to be found is within the knowledge of what He has chosen to reveal to us.

And concerning the things not revealed, we simply have no authority to present our ideologies as paramount to what we are directly told. The things we can see and understand concerning God are a very small portion of what God has done and is capable of doing. Thus, it indeed would be "silly" to try to make conclusion about the vast totality of God based on the small glimpses of what has been revealed. "Who can utter the mighty acts of the Lord? Who can show forth all his phrase? Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times." -- Ps. 106:2. "Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number. Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not. BEHOLD HE TAKETH AWAY, WHO CAN HINDER HIM? WHO WILL SAY UNTO HIM, WHAT DOEST THOU?" -- Job 9:10-12.

Thus, just who are we to question His judgments and punishments? For surely, Capital Punishment still remains as a righteous judgment of God. And it is not up to you, or me, or power of Government to declare this judgment as invalid or unjust. What, are we to "cherry pick" our way though the knowledge of God presented to us in the Holy Scriptures and "choose" what best suits our personal ideologies? Do, as you wish, but as for myself, if I am to believe just one word, I must accept it all, and I shall. Whether or not others find it all acceptable or not. TRUE LOVE, DOES NOT IGNORE TRUE JUSTICE, especially when an unrepented act goes unpunished. (R)

garysher · 04-15-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralph

Hey, its God's creation and God's universe to do with as He pleases, as I said, I have said nothing other than what is presented in the Scriptures, as this is ALL that I can know about God, for that is what He has revealed to us. And no there is not one instance of God contradicting Himself in the scriptures, if the scriptures are rightly divided and allowed to interpret themselves, just as proven.

Doesn't this contradict the fact that God gave mankind free will?

The Commandment not to kill can mean nothing other than the unrighteous act of murder, as there other very clear examples of righteous Killing in punishments of penalties presented by the righteous judgments of God.

The fact remains as per the query of this thread, You cannot prove via use of the scriptures that Capital Punishment is "un-Christian". All the opinion that you wish to present, and all the words that you are trying to use in a request for me to place words of declaration into Gods mouth, amount to nothing and are moot, as opinion does not contradict scriptural writings. As I have said, I surely do not know what God is thinking nor what His intentions are, other than by what He as chosen to reveal to us. -- l Cor. 2:10-11, "But God hath revealed them (The things which God has prepared) to us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of GOD KNOWETH NO MAN, but the spirit of God." And as I have tried to explain, by you suggesting that I answer questions about what God is doing or is allowing others to do, does not mean that "I" have this knowledge.....I do not, I could offer my opinion but that also would be moot because the Spirit of God, has delivered ALL truth to the saints of the lst century, when Christ commissioned Him (the Spirit of God, aka the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth) to do as much -- John 14:15-17, 16:13. And this truth is all that is needed to make the man of God complete, thoroughly furnished unto all good works -- 2 Tim 3:16-17. And again declared to have been delivered once and for all time to the saints -- Jude 1:3. Again, I cannot answer questions for God in His stead, even as much as you would like to distract and redirect this thread away from the truth presented in the scriptures about, CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. As truth does not change when it is once delivered, it is not subject to change due to age, what was true in the 1st century is just as true today. Opinions may change, but the truth never does. And everyone is allowed to present their opinion, but not their truth, because truth does not belong to any one person, what is true for me is just as true for you, as there are many opinions but only one truth. (R)

That isn't quite true.

There are different kinds of truths, including empirical and a priori truths, absolute truths and truths based on experience or opinion.

Water boils at 100 degrees C at sea level, that is an absolute truth.

There are also truths based on opinions. In the 1st century everyone thought the world was flat and that the Sun revolved around it. Nobody was aware that the American and Australian continents existed. That was the truth at that time.

Similarly you may prefer steak to salmon, that is true for you, but it isn't necessarily true for me.

It's curious that Christians interpret the Bible according to their cultural norms.

Many American Christians believe capital punishment and gun ownership is entirely Biblical, in accordance with their prevailing cultural traditions.

Many Christian "pastors" in America believe that the "prosperity Gospel" is supported by scripture, as they fly from one mansion to another in their private jets.

Christians in other parts of the world living with different cultural and social norms, take an entirely opposite view.

How can they all be right?

hot dragon · 04-15-2008, 09:43 PM

Ralph;

As I always demonstrate, when a comprehensive study of the revealed word, is presented, it is not "MY" place to disagree with such.

whose comprehensive study? different theologans arrive at opposite conclusions from the same book!

But, on the other hand if single passages of scripture are taken away from the "subject" in which they are related, or "cherry picked", this is not comprehension, this is a clear demonstration of "manipulation" in taking a half truth and making a "whole lie" out of partial information.

soemthing christians are extremely good at.

The scriptures interpret themselves, WHEN ALLOWED. Just as demonstrated, when one is of the opinion that a prohibition upon self defense is declared by trying to manipulate the scriptures to declare that "vengeance" and "protection" are one in the same, when clearly other scriptures demonstrate, that self protection of both life and property are not under any God mandated prohibition, nor is "CAPITAL PUNISHMENT", as God Himself demonstrated. Thus, present away, for there is nothing in God's revelation that is to be hidden under a basket, we welcome any open discussion that may lead to any edification, of myself, or of someone else.

try garyshers "thout shall not kill"?

For indeed this is the very reason that God presented us (mankind) with this book of instruction that guides us along the path of life's journey. Are we to be like the traveler, that is to proud and arrogant to ask for simple directions to our destination? God offers a complete detailed road map for this journey that we call life, if we but follow its clear instructions. Just Who is a better instructor than the creator of life Himself?

clear instructions! a book of ancient manuscripts full of contradictions and inconsistencies? in what way is this clear instructions? if it is so clear, why do theologans disagree about what it means? why do those that study it come to different understandings of it?

the bible is anything but clear, anything but a useful book of instructions. you cannot follow it completely, because following one bit of it means contravening other bits.

waitingtables · 04-16-2008, 04:39 PM

I agree with the above posters. And I think that Jesus was pretty clear about the previous commandments and his two commandments. I don't think I need to quote them, I'm sure you know them, Ralph. And I find it very hard to believe that you would accept executioners as God's right hand men, when they clearly work for the secular government. They aren't concerned with religion when they are flipping the switch.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode