Death Penalty Un-Christian

CrazyFlamingos · 03-07-2008, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

I don't know how you consider my argument a straw man. I stated that if murder is wrong, it's wrong 100%. Not to mention that our system is so corrupt, it is not applied fairly or equally, and one innocent state sanctioned death is too many. Therefore, the death penalty is wrong. I'm not referring to how these prisoners are held, or cruel and unusual punishment

I assume you are addressing me. I wish you would use the quote feature so I could be sure.

The straw man came when you implied that I said we should not lock up criminals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

So crazy, what is your solution? We have to protect society from criminals, how do we do that without locking them up?

I never said that we should not lock up criminals. And you have yet to address what I actually did say.

Unless you would like to address the extreme cruelty of the 24-hour lock-down policy of the Supermax prisons, I am not going to respond to any more of your posts. Since you are the one that suggested that the Supermax was a more moral option for eliminating the threat represented by extremely dangerous murderers, I would think you would be willing to defend your stance.

The only point that I was ever trying to make is that the extreme isolation and sensory deprivation is a fate more cruel than death.

If you do not want to address that, fine. I am not going to be distracted by arguments from you against ideas that I never put forward in the first place.

highway80west · 03-07-2008, 11:32 AM

Not all criminals at the Supermax are murderers. There are some spies there like Robert Hanssen (see the movie "Breach"), Christopher Boyce.

I thought that Aldrich Ames and John Walker (the Walker spy ring) would be there, the wikipedia database does not list him as an inmate.

garysher · 03-07-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgtdmski

The Constitution does support laws about gun ownership, it is called the Second Amendment!! What does owning a gun have anything to do with religion. Guns are used every day to hunt, and to save lives. There is no surrendering of principle. While Jesus did tell us to turn the other cheek, he also set forth the right for the state to defend us when someone treats us unjustly.

Can you provide chapter and verse on that please?

Why should belief in God take those protections away??????

dmk

It's rather the reverse - if the rights enumerated in the US Constitution are "God-given", then

1) Why would God give that right to certain countries - US, Iraq, Rwanda for example - but not to all the others?

2) Why would God give out a right that causes so much death and misery ?

garysher · 03-07-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

So if a person owns a gun that means they cant be a Christian?

Its the reverse Grace - if a person is a Christian why would they want to encourage ownership of these instruments of death?

How are Christians differentiating themselves from comon criminals and homicidal gang members?

Surely Christians should be all about preserving life not taking it away!

I understand the use of guns for hunting so people can eat.

Hayling · 03-07-2008, 02:28 PM

Hahaha UN-CHRISTIAN....

read the bible...

God doesn't reason he kills and when he does it... he lets the blood flow freely in the streets.

Futhermore.. last I checked it was "thou shall not murder"

the newer bibles have changed it to *kill*

waitingtables · 03-07-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Unless you would like to address the extreme cruelty of the 24-hour lock-down policy of the Supermax prisons, I am not going to respond to any more of your posts. Since you are the one that suggested that the Supermax was a more moral option for eliminating the threat represented by extremely dangerous murderers, I would think you would be willing to defend your stance.

I never suggested that supermax was anything, you brought it up. All I did say is that Supermax is where they put the inmates who are too dangerous to be around others or are so violent that they can't be controlled in general population. And that the guards who are there know that their job could result in harm to them. Why should I address the conditions of supermax as eliminating the threat of the murderers? I just said that they should be locked up for life, rather than executed. I don't understand your problem about my disbelief in the death penalty.

CrazyFlamingos · 03-07-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

I never suggested that supermax was anything, you brought it up. All I did say is that Supermax is where they put the inmates who are too dangerous to be around others or are so violent that they can't be controlled in general population. And that the guards who are there know that their job could result in harm to them. Why should I address the conditions of supermax as eliminating the threat of the murderers? I just said that they should be locked up for life, rather than executed. I don't understand your problem about my disbelief in the death penalty.

You are the one who brought up supermax in this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

That is why we have supermax facilities. And a guard is the sme as a cop, they know the risks of their jobs when they decide to do that job.

And you have completely avoided explaining why incarcerating people in that manner is morally superior to executing them.

And that, in a nutshell, is my problem with your disbelief in the death penalty.

You think subjecting people to an extremely cruel form of incarceration is a morally superior choice to execution.

Katczinsky · 03-07-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayling

Hahaha UN-CHRISTIAN....

read the bible...

God doesn't reason he kills and when he does it... he lets the blood flow freely in the streets.

Futhermore.. last I checked it was "thou shall not murder"

the newer bibles have changed it to *kill*

I'm going to have to agree here. Vengeance and the death penalty are complimentary to Christian doctrine as much as forgiveness is.

I'm just curious as to why Gary is having a hard time differentiating law-abiding citizens with guns and "comon criminals and homicidal gang members". If anyone with guns automatically warrants such an association then perhaps our military and law enforcement officers fall into such a category.

I suspect Gary will attempt to defend himself with butter knives in the event of an armed intrusion, or maybe he would fight with a pitchfork in the event of a foreign occupation. I guess that's his prerogative but it won't get him very far. Let us just be glad that the people that defended his island had a different idea about firearms.

waitingtables · 03-07-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Why should we keep alive a person who is a danger to guards or even fellow prisoners?

Or someone who communicates with others outside of prison to conspire to murder?

Post #26 is my response on supermax relating to your above question. You asked about the prisoners who were a threat to others or guards. My response should have been solitary confinement. Supermax is reserved for the worst criminals today. And it was actually PN who first mentioned them in a post just a few before # 25. And I find it isn't moral to decide who lives or dies, and like I stated before, it is society's job to remove the threat from society. I don't see prison as torture, so to me it isn't immoral compared to the death penatly.

Hayling · 03-07-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Surely Christians should be all about preserving life not taking it away!

Hmm how interesting... looking at the past though I must admit... there have been some bloody Christian movements. One could argue they've called more than they've *saved*.

Religious intolerance is very prominent in the holy book

Quote:

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

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They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

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Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

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If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Quote:

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

You do understand of course Gary that... TRUE CHRISTIANS..... one's that follow the word of the bible... can decide to interpret in a .... negative way?

Guess I need not say more.

Mind you though... I would like you to comment on these beautiful passages.