waitingtables

I was stating that anyone who is convicted of murder should never be out of prison, no parole. And if he got life without parole when he was convicted, he would not have killed those people because he would not have been released. And the death penalty is not imposed fairly, fx, it never has been.

Gadgetory

Its disproportionally effects the Black and Hispanic communities who are considerably more likely to be sentenced to death then the White and Asian community for the crime of murder. Sometimes this has to do with Felony murder or murder committed during another crime which tends to effect African and Latino Americans more often, statistically speaking. But its also to do with the lack of proper legal counsel at trial. That is white and Asian Americans are more likely to have better counsel. A Public Defender performs a much needed service to our society but they are generally speaking over worked, under paid and lack resources. White and Asian Americans are also more likely to get lighter sentences for the same or similar crime(s) then Black and Latino Americans.

There is also aboiut 1 in 20 people who are later found to be innocent of the crime they were given the death penalty for. And I know there is the old system isn't perfect but its the best we got speech. Which may be true but as its not perfect perhaps we shouldn't put people to death. There is also the issue with the legal standard of beyond 'reasonable' doubt. Guilty means guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which also means there is doubt its just its more reasonable to assume guilt in the circumstances then to assume they are not guilty.

All in all the death penalty is barbaric, costs more then imprisoning someone for life and is disproportionally applied to specific 'minorities'.

America is the only country in the Western developed world that still practices it because everywhere else its seen as cruel and unusual punishment and just really freakin expensive.

waitingtables

Agreed^^^^^

Ralph

To hear many talk today about how horrible and inhumane the death penalty is you would think it surely must have originated with some barbaric, savage people or tyrant. "Whosoever shedeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed," Because, God says, "for in the image of God made he man" -- Genesis 9:5-6. Thus, any man who commits murder, "sheddeth man's blood", man is then authorized by God to take his life. The New Testament makes it plain regarding civil government's right to take the life of the offender -- Romans 13

There have been 3 dispensations in the history of God's relationship and covenants with mankind. 1.) The Patriarchal -- Genesis 3 thru Ex. 20. 2.) The Mosaic -- Ex.20 thru Acts 2. 3.) The Gospel Age -- Acts 2 thru Judgment. God instituted the death penalty under or during the Patriarchal Age. -- Genesis 9:5-6. Take note on "why" the murderer's life is to be taken: "...for in the image of God made he man." Thus, the reason for the introduction of the death penalty is not to be considered as dispensational or dealing with a restriction due to a covenant that would end when the covenant changed. This will always be an abomination in the eyes of God -- Proverbs 6:16-19, "...hands that sheld innocent blood". Why? Because man will always remain made in the image of God.

The Mosaic Age is explicit in its teaching regarding the death penalty. Commandment number six of the Ten Commandments was, "Thou shat not kill", clearly meaning murder, The punishment for such was indeed Capital Punishment -- Ex. 21:12.

As much as some may disagree, the Death Penalty is taught under the "perfect law of liberty" or the Gospel Age as well. The Scriptures clearly and distinctly teach the right of the Civil Government to exist and demand Christian subjection -- Romans 13: 1-7, with exceptions as referenced by Acts 5:29, when man's law goes against the "transcendent" righteous laws of God, we are not to transgress God's righteous law, even if dictated so by an unrighteous man made law. But clearly the death penalty still exists as evidenced by God carrying out such a penalty himself -- Acts Chapter 5. Notice the actual words of the Scriptures, "For he (the government representative) is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; FOR HE BEARETH NOT THE SWORD IN VAIN; FOR HE IS THE MINISTER OF GOD, A "REVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH" UPON HIM THAT DOETH EVIL." -- Romans 13:4.

Another thing that some might find interesting would be the information contained in "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Law", a cornerstone of American Jurisprudence from 1776 thru 1920 and considered the last word by the American Supreme Court with endorsement by such men as -- John Marshall, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, James Wilson, Charles Finney, and Abraham Lincoln.

This Law Book Taught......

1.) US Law could not contradict God's direct decrees: however
2.) If God made no decree, we as a nation could set our own policy of law.

SECTION TWO

To instance, in the case of murder: this is EXPRESSLY forbidden by the "Divine.." If any human law should allow or enjoin us to commit it, we are bound to transgress that human law.....But, with regard to matters that are not commanded or forbidden by {the Scriptures}, such as for instance, the exporting of wool into foreign countries, here the Legislature has scope and opportunity to interpose.... (R)

garysher

__________________

Ralph

If "I" had been suggesting anything, I would declare it as an opinion, Those words that you are declaring that I am suggesting are in fact there and they do read, VERBATIM, just as they were presented. Thus, it is the author of the scriptures that is suggesting that all governments are placed by and allowed to exist solely by the power and authority of God. Just as did Jesus Christ -- John 19:10-11. Notice also that these verses are spoken in relation to God declaring that vengeance does not belong to the individual Christian, but to God and God alone -- Romans 12:19. Then we are told "exactly" how God goes about exacting this vengeance for wrongful or evil actions in the very next Chapter (13). Now you are SUGGESTING that I AM SUGGESTING, when in reality it is GOD DECLARING? Notice in fact how God declares that man would be punished when he spills the blood of another man in an unrighteous manner -- Genesis 9:6, "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, BY MAN SHALL HIS BLOOD BE SHED..." God did not declare that He would magically descend upon a person guilty of murder by casting lighting bolts at him or such nonsense, He said that man would be punished by man for his transgression of murder. And sense the individual Christian is prohibited to take any act of personal vengeance outside of self defense, by what other course does God direct His righteous judgment? He does so just as Jesus declares, "Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above;...." -- John 19:11. These words were spoken by Christ when "Pilate" was informing him that he held the life of Christ Jesus within the words of his authority.

It's amazing how some can not or will not simply accept the scriptures just as they are written, and then declare it is ok to INTERPRET THEM. Go Figure. But still, this does not explain away the scriptural fact that "capital punishment", which was first instituted by God Himself, is somehow done away by any of the teachings of Jesus. In fact, was not our very salvation a product of capital punishment, used by Jesus to offer himself as the ultimate sacrificial lamb of God? And even the Christ declares there is a time and place to bear the sword, as He instructs His apostles to sell their extra clothing and purchase a sword -- Luke 22:32-36. Notice also, how quickly these "swords" were actually produced when the Christ informed them they would in fact be in need of them when they went to evangelize the world -- Vs 38, "And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough." Apparently they were already "packin" and "strapped" when the Lord told them of the future need to be as such.

Thus it is true that Christianity is a religion of love, tolerance, and acceptance, and we are instructed not to bring physical harm to another simply because of anger or through an act of vengeance, but on the other hand, self protection of both life and property are not declared as an unjust or unrighteous action anywhere in the New Testament scriptures, as Jesus Himself declares, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." -- John 15:13. And as said, Capital punishment was in fact demonstrated as just when one conforms to the righteous judgments of God -- Acts 5. (R)

indago

gets death penalty

garysher

__________________

hot dragon

fascinating to see someone say that christianity is a religion of love, tolerance and acceptance, and argue for the right to kill, all on the same page. i always thought the central message of Jesus was forgiveness.

capital punishment does not achieve what it is intended to achieve. it does not deter criminals. it does not reduce crime. it does not save incarceration costs. all it achieves is vengeance, and that is achieved at the expense of killing the occasional innocent peson.

and how do you apologise to those who are innocent of the crime they were executed for?

waitingtables

I hate to agree with Gary, I really do. But Jesus made it quite clear that he was bringing forward a new covenant. I would completely disagree with anyone who stated that the death penalty and Christianity were not mutually exclusive. Jesus did not ever state that it was alright to murder someone for a crime. Never did, and never would. It is antithetical to his teachings and his message.