Defending the Truth

garysher · 02-19-2008, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

Oh, my bad then! Sorry.

Apology accepted tables, please try not to do it again

CrazyFlamingos · 02-19-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waitingtables

Oh, my bad then! Sorry.

No problem.

bfrazz1 · 02-25-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos

So you are against the death penalty but you are not against punishing a person in a manner that the person being punished perceives as worse than death.

Forgive me but I fail to see the logic behind that.

We do not run the justice system based on what the perpetrator of the crime perceives as "worse than" or "preferable to"; it simply comes down to the fact that certain crimes demand a stiff penalty. I easily reconcile the concept that killing someone for a violent crime is uncivilized (revenge) whereas imprisonment for life is appropriate, civilized and in many cases well called for.

CrazyFlamingos · 02-25-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfrazz1

We do not run the justice system based on what the perpetrator of the crime perceives as "worse than" or "preferable to"; it simply comes down to the fact that certain crimes demand a stiff penalty. I easily reconcile the concept that killing someone for a violent crime is uncivilized (revenge) whereas imprisonment for life is appropriate, civilized and in many cases well called for.

I understood the first time that you reconcile it.

What I asked was how you reconcile . I am not holding my breath for a logical answer.

By the way, the entire concept of "cruel and unusual punishment" is based the perception of the perpetrator of the crime.

bfrazz1 · 02-25-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos

I understood the first time that you reconcile it.

What I asked was how you reconcile . I am not holding my breath for a logical answer.

By the way, the entire concept of "cruel and unusual punishment" is based the perception of the perpetrator of the crime.

If one was to accept your logic, a traffic ticket could be defined as "cruel and unusual" by the person ticketed. Since when does the perception of the adjudged become part of the equation? The concept of "cruel and unusual" has always been recognized from the viewpoint of those outside of the circle of the perpetrator convicted. In the vast majority of the civilized world, Execution is simply unethical and morally unjustifiable. Life in prison, on the other hand, is not. What do you propose, we simply let the truly criminal convicted of a capital crime go free, or that we simply kill them all? Death is irreversible, imprisonment is not. Consider those hundreds, if not thousands imprisoned who've later been released based on new evidence or DNA.

I dare suggest that it is your logic that is flawed.

CrazyFlamingos · 02-25-2008, 06:53 PM

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Originally Posted by bfrazz1

If one was to accept your logic, a traffic ticket could be defined as "cruel and unusual" by the person ticketed.

And we descend into silliness!

Quote:

Since when does the perception of the adjudged become part of the equation? The concept of "cruel and unusual" has always been recognized from the viewpoint of those outside of the circle of the perpetrator convicted.

Not really possible since "those outside the circle of the perpetrator convicted" will suffer no harm whatsoever no matter how heinous the punishment.

Quote:

In the vast majority of the civilized world, Execution is simply unethical and morally unjustifiable. Life in prison, on the other hand, is not. What do you propose, we simply let the truly criminal convicted of a capital crime go free, or that we simply kill them all? Death is irreversible, imprisonment is not. Consider those hundreds, if not thousands imprisoned who've later been released based on new evidence or DNA.

Actually, I think that the death penalty should be available but much more judicially applied than in its present incarnation. I do not see anything either unethical or immoral about executing an unrepentant and unredeemable killer. I also think our prison system needs to be reformed so that its emphasis is on rehabilitation rather than merely incarceration but that ain't gonna happen either. Thanks for asking..

Quote:

I dare suggest that it is your logic that is flawed.

Sure you do, skippy.

CrazyFlamingos · 02-25-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfrazz1

Execution is simply unethical and morally unjustifiable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfrazz1

If you stick your leg into my house while breaking in, I'm going to shoot you. I'm not going to wait for you to rob anything, or for you to attack me.

And he thinks MY logic is flawed.

bfrazz1 · 02-25-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos

And he thinks MY logic is flawed.

Two entirely different scenarios bucko. If you are at the point where you feel compelled to defend yourself from an impending and immediate threat to your life or the lives of those you love, you are justified in doing what you must in the name of self preservation. It is an action taken at the moment, a dangerous decision that must be made one way or the other. To fail to act decisively would be foolish and dangerous.

Judicial summary execution, based on the knowledge that our system of justice is highly fallible, prone to discrimination against the poor, the unpopular, and the feeble... and subject to error is an altogether different matter. A sentence of Life imprisonment without parole still allows for the reversal of that sentence in light of new evidence. And while I agree that the goal of most imprisonment should be rehabilitation, certain heinous crimes like serial murder, sexual torture and the like strike me as being committed by persons who should not be allowed the opportunity to commit these acts again, rehabilitation notwithstanding. The chance of further victimization of innocents is not worth the gamble.

Sharon den Adel · 04-12-2008, 10:00 PM

[quote]In December, officials in Texas and California conceded that the suicide rates in their prisons are on the rise, with the majority occurring among inmates in solitary. [/quote]

A few weeks ago, I watched a documentary about the effects of being kept in solitary confinement. Half a dozen people were invited to take part in an experiement, in which they would be placed in solitary confinement for a period of three days. Cameras would be focused on them at all times, and the physical and psychological effects on them before, during, and after the experiement would be closely monitered.
Just an hour after being locked in these rooms, these people were being driven mad. They sat on their beds and shook, talked to themselves, paced the room, etc. You can imagine what effect solitary confinement had on them after 72 hours.

I never considered this to be a form of torture, but after watching this program, I believe it is.
I don't know of any way to improve the system, though, but those who go into prison sane, should come out the sane, in my opinion.

I am interested in whether anyone else watched this documentary?

fxashun · 04-12-2008, 10:04 PM

I couldn't do it. One of the most important things to me is my freedom. The threat of prison works on me, I don't wanna be confined anywhere. Hell, I don't even like standing in line.

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