McCain criticized for calling U.S. 'Christian nation'

knot_e_lady · 10-11-2007, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgtdmski

the SCOTUS tells us what is constitutional, well it would seem even to the Court we are a Christian nation. Since they determine the law of the land, it is the law of the land. Like or not. You can't have it both ways.

dmk

Where exactly is this ruling?

CrazyFlamingos · 10-11-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgtdmski

Hey folks argue all you want, the simple fact is that I provided a definition, and considering the word is an adjective and that the majority of Americans claim to be Christians the statement is true. I seem to notice how you conveniently overlook the Supreme Court ruling. Once again you rely so much on it to defend abortion, the SCOTUS tells us what is constitutional, well it would seem even to the Court we are a Christian nation. Since they determine the law of the land, it is the law of the land. Like or not. You can't have it both ways.

dmk

Quote from article:

Quote:

McCain also said he agreed with a recent poll that 55 percent of Americans believe the U.S. Constitution establishes a Christian nation. "I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation," he said.

SCOTUS quote:

Quote:

If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters note the following: The form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, "In the name of God, amen;" the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing everywhere under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.

Sorry, don’t see how this opinion carries the weight of law.

“A volume of unofficial declarations”?

Notice that word, unofficial.

We are a Christian nation in the sense that a large percentage of Americans are Christian. But there is nothing official about it and the Constitution did not establish it. That is where McCain is wrong.

sgtdmski · 10-12-2007, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos

Quote from article:

SCOTUS quote:

Sorry, don’t see how this opinion carries the weight of law.

“A volume of unofficial declarations”?

Notice that word, unofficial.

We are a Christian nation in the sense that a large percentage of Americans are Christian. But there is nothing official about it and the Constitution did not establish it. That is where McCain is wrong.

As liberals like to claim the SCOTUS determines what the Constitution says. The Supreme Court in Holy Trinity recognized the unoffical declarations stating that this country was a Christian nation. By recognizing this claim, the SCOTUS has declared that we are a Christian Nation. Since it the responsibility of SCOTUS to tell us poor folks what the Constitution and the Law of the Land mean, then unfortunately this is the law of the land.

Despite the word unofficial, the Court recognized the country as a Christian nation, please don't try to back track now. And it would seem again that McCain was right both grammatically and constitutionally.

dmk

CrazyFlamingos · 10-12-2007, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgtdmski

As liberals like to claim the SCOTUS determines what the Constitution says. The Supreme Court in Holy Trinity recognized the unoffical declarations stating that this country was a Christian nation. By recognizing this claim, the SCOTUS has declared that we are a Christian Nation. Since it the responsibility of SCOTUS to tell us poor folks what the Constitution and the Law of the Land mean, then unfortunately this is the law of the land.

Despite the word unofficial, the Court recognized the country as a Christian nation, please don't try to back track now. And it would seem again that McCain was right both grammatically and constitutionally.

dmk

The case that you are citing is about a church's right to hire a minister from another country. Later the opinion specifically states that this right also extends to Jewish synagogues also. The implication -- to any thinking person -- is that it extends to any religious congregation.

Play your sarcastic little games if you want. It doesn't change the fact that we are not Constitutionally a Christian country.

Quote:

Suppose, in the congress that passed this act, some member had offered a bill which in terms declared that, if any Roman Catholic church in this country should contract with Cardinal Manning to come to this country, and enter into its service as pastor and priest, or any Episcopal church should enter into a like contract with Canon Farrar, or any Baptist church should make similar arrangements with Rev. Mr. Spurgeon, or any Jewish synagogue with some eminent rabbi, such contract should be adjudged unlawful and void, and the church making it be subject to prosecution and punishment. Can it be believed that it would have received a minute of approving thought or a single vote? Yet it is contended that such was, in effect, the meaning of this statute. The construction invoked cannot be accepted as correct. It is a case where there was presented a definite evil, in view of which the legislature used general terms with the purpose of reaching all phases of that evil; and thereafter, unexpectedly, it is developed that the general language thus employed is broad enough to reach cases and acts which the whole history and life of the country affirm could not have been intentionally legislated against.

Church of Holy Trinity v. United States - vLex

tristanrobin · 10-12-2007, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos

Play your sarcastic little games if you want. It doesn't change the fact that we are not Constitutionally a Christian country.

touchdown

Katczinsky · 10-12-2007, 09:48 AM

Presupposition 1. America is a Christian nation (our national identity is intertwined with Christian identity).
It would then logically follow that, 1a. To be American is to be Christian.
Yet,
2. I am not a Christian.
3. I am an American.
4. Therefore, America must not be a Christian nation (the true premises 2 and 3 do not logically follow the conclusion [or presupposition] of 1[a]).

Unless of course you're George H. W. Bush, in which case my premise 3 would not be true:
"I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God."
-George H. W. Bush

fxashun · 10-12-2007, 09:56 AM

Well you would also think that to be an American you should be..
1. Born here
2. Here on a Visa
3. Naturalized

Increasingly, it seems that just popping across the Rio Grand is enough for many of our politicians and citizens. Nothing is held "sacred" anymore, not even our borders.

baloney_detector · 10-12-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

"I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God." - George H. W. Bush

Now THAT is a very un-American statement if you ask me.

baloney_detector · 10-12-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun

Well you would also think that to be an American you should be..
1. Born here
2. Here on a Visa
3. Naturalized

Hey, I guess there ARE some things that we both agree with Fxashun!

CrazyFlamingos · 10-12-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

"I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God."
-George H. W. Bush

I have never seen that quote before.

He can kiss my red, white and blue, agnostic butt. ('Cause I am pretty sure agnostics would be included in his non-citizens group too.)