Lawmaker won't apologize for 'Islamophobic' letter - Page 5

Jefferson · 12-27-2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

Whose "estimates" are those?
And how many of those "million" reside in the U.S.?

I acknowledge a problem exists with EXTREMISM in Islam. I'm not trying to gloss over that.

But the point is that Islam ITSELF is not the problem.

Wrong.

If these people were not MUSLIM they would not be terrorists.

The root is ISLAM it is NOT extremism. It is the EXAMPLE of Muhammed, the original terrorist - and it is the teaching of the Koran and Hadiths that Muslims cling to. THAT is the problem!

foundit66 · 12-27-2006, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Wrong.
If these people were not MUSLIM they would not be terrorists.

I disagree.
Terrorists find any fundamentalist extremist excuse to try to excuse and justify their violence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

The root is ISLAM it is NOT extremism. It is the EXAMPLE of Muhammed, the original terrorist - and it is the teaching of the Koran and Hadiths that Muslims cling to. THAT is the problem!

The teachings of the Bible can be shown to be barbaric as well.
It's what people focus on. Some read the bible and take away that it justifies bigotry. Others read the bible and see passages on loving your neighbor.

The MAJORITY of Muslim teachings IS NOT VIOLENT.
The MAJORITY of Muslim teachings CONDEMNS these terrorist acts.
I cannot stress that enough, even though it is primarily ignored.

Jefferson · 12-27-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I disagree.
Terrorists find any fundamentalist extremist excuse to try to excuse and justify their violence.

The teachings of the Bible can be shown to be barbaric as well.
It's what people focus on. Some read the bible and take away that it justifies bigotry. Others read the bible and see passages on loving your neighbor.

The MAJORITY of Muslim teachings IS NOT VIOLENT.
The MAJORITY of Muslim teachings CONDEMNS these terrorist acts.
I cannot stress that enough, even though it is primarily ignored.

Two things are terribly obvious:

1. You have not studied Muhammad.
2. You have not studied the history of Islam.

foundit66 · 12-27-2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Two things are terribly obvious:
1. You have not studied Muhammad.

And I suppose you have?
Quite frankly, your "studying" of Muhammad is inconsequential compared to the MUSLIM CLERICS who have studied Muhammad and the Koran.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

2. You have not studied the history of Islam.

I will agree with you that the history of Islam is very bloody.
However, will you also acknowledge that the history of Christianity has a lot of blood on it as well?

Jefferson · 12-27-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

And I suppose you have?
Quite frankly, your "studying" of Muhammad is inconsequential compared to the MUSLIM CLERICS who have studied Muhammad and the Koran.

I will agree with you that the history of Islam is very bloody.
However, will you also acknowledge that the history of Christianity has a lot of blood on it as well?

1. Yes, as a matter of fact, I HAVE studied the life of Muhammad EXTENSIVELY. You would do well to do the same BEFORE you continue to be one of his main proponents.

2. I will be the FIRST one to say that the Crusades were STUPID and WRONG. I will also say that IF - and I repeat, IF - you knew history, you would know that the Crusades were a direct result of MUSLIM AGGRESSION AND WARFARE.

You can defend Muhammad, and Islam, all you want. But the facts are staring you right in the face, and you are wrong.

foundit66 · 12-27-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

1. Yes, as a matter of fact, I HAVE studied the life of Muhammad EXTENSIVELY. You would do well to do the same BEFORE you continue to be one of his main proponents.

I should correct you.
I am not one of his "proponents". I do not believe in Islam. I do not support the Muslim religion. I believe it false like Christianity.

But at the same time, if you look at a variety of religious icons in the Judeo-Christian history, you'll find that a lot of the revered leaders were guilty of great atrocities, at least by today's standards. (genocide, slavery, etc...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

2. I will be the FIRST one to say that the Crusades were STUPID and WRONG. I will also say that IF - and I repeat, IF - you knew history, you would know that the Crusades were a direct result of MUSLIM AGGRESSION AND WARFARE.

The crusades are a perfect example of how religious antagonism can result in continual blood-shed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferson

You can defend Muhammad, and Islam, all you want. But the facts are staring you right in the face, and you are wrong.

How is what I ACTUALLY SAID "wrong"?
Just like most Jews and most Christians do not tout the slavery, misogyny, and genocide of the Old Testament, so do the modern Muslims clerics typically not tout violence and blood-shed.

I have no doubts that the Koran has significant moral issues, like any mythology with ancient roots.

My point is regarding MODERN PHILOSOPHY of the religion, and how most Muslims are actually INTERPRETING their religion.
Anybody can take a look at individual stories in the bible and see the violence and the blood-shed, and interpret advocated murder. It's how the actual FOLLOWERS interpret and apply the religion which is more real.

alias · 12-27-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I should correct you.
I am not one of his "proponents". I do not believe in Islam. I do not support the Muslim religion. I believe it false like Christianity.

But at the same time, if you look at a variety of religious icons in the Judeo-Christian history, you'll find that a lot of the revered leaders were guilty of great atrocities, at least by today's standards. (genocide, slavery, etc...)

The crusades are a perfect example of how religious antagonism can result in continual blood-shed.

How is what I ACTUALLY SAID "wrong"?
Just like most Jews and most Christians do not tout the slavery, misogyny, and genocide of the Old Testament, so do the modern Muslims clerics typically not tout violence and blood-shed.

I have no doubts that the Koran has significant moral issues, like any mythology with ancient roots.

My point is regarding MODERN PHILOSOPHY of the religion, and how most Muslims are actually INTERPRETING their religion.
Anybody can take a look at individual stories in the bible and see the violence and the blood-shed, and interpret advocated murder. It's how the actual FOLLOWERS interpret and apply the religion which is more real.

Christianity is the New Testament. Show us in the New Testament where it encourages believers to force people to believe or murder them. Show us in the New Testament anything Jesus said that was about murdering unbelievers. You can't. I can show you and I have shone numerous verses in the koran stating just that.

You are fighting a losing battle on this one foundit. Islam is a violent religion, Christianity is not.

foundit66 · 12-27-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias

Christianity is the New Testament. Show us in the New Testament where it encourages believers to force people to believe or murder them.

Christianity is in the new testament? Duh!

But somehow, when people quote bible verses against homosexuality it is typically the Old Testament ones which come out first...

Seems Christians still know where the Old Testament is located, and they still follow at least portions of it. At least the portions they still want to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias

Show us in the New Testament anything Jesus said that was about murdering unbelievers. You can't. I can show you and I have shone numerous verses in the koran stating just that.

And if you talk to Muslim clerics, they'll also give you reasons why what you're quoting is not relevant just like you pointing out "old testament vs new testament"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias

You are fighting a losing battle on this one foundit. Islam is a violent religion, Christianity is not.

Either can be used for violence, and history has proven that fact.
If Islam is a violent religion, then why are most Muslims non-violent?

alias · 12-27-2006, 06:28 PM

And as usual you can't address the issue because what I stated is true. Jesus was a man of peace. Mohammed was a man of war and murder and pedophilia. Just the facts.

foundit66 · 12-27-2006, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias

And as usual you can't address the issue because what I stated is true. Jesus was a man of peace. Mohammed was a man of war and murder and pedophilia. Just the facts.

You just don't get it, do you.
Jesus was a man of peace, but like OhDear's link showed there have been MILLIONS who have died in Christ's name despite his teachings.

Mohammad may be classified as a "man of war", yet the majority of Muslims show no real interest in war, and the majority of Muslim clerics preach peace.

You can try to throw stones all you like, but inevitably it's still a pot with a dark blemish pointing to a kettle with a dark blemish.

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