Unions HAVE a place in society - and they HAD a bigger place, and larger role.

But Unions are well-known for their blatant corruption. Most fall just short of Organized Crime. Extortion is a big game among unions.


Clearly, there needs to be an overhaul of American Unions. If there isn't, companies will continue to out-source jobs, unemployment will rise, and the unions will simply price themselves out of existence.

I did read your response. All of it. Sounds like they negotiated pretty chitty health insurance and now they have to go to arbitration which will take up to two years. That's ridiculous!

I've never heard of anyone having this kind of a problem with their health insurance where they had to pay. This is why you pay premiums so THEY pay. The union should lend you the money since it's really their fault in MHO.

You also said to trust doctors or something along that line in an ER. No way! I don't know them. My son had a ruptured appendix and the ER sent him home with the flu. He went back a week later and they had to do emergency surgery on him. I say trust noone. I would have gone to my PCP and gotten another opinion before I let my Mom sit with a broken jaw for two weeks. I know because my Mom had a massive heart attack and the doctors where she was going didn't even know it. After 6 weeks of going back and forth to the ER and staying in the hospital I switched her to a different hospital called in a different doctor, and she died that night as she was being treated in the ICU.

When it comes to your health you have to be very aware of what is going on, and do a lot of reading about your condition and so forth. I don't care if you have universal healthcare, insurance, whatever. It's still your life.

You've hit on the VERY reason this whole story "stinks of a rat."

It doesn't add up, and it doesn't hold water.

Well personallyi believe that god made man in his image. From that i infer that human perfection is not only a possibility .. it is an INEVITABILITY. In spite of the disheartening number of atrocities committed by humanity through the ages, i still think that we have progressively gotten better at handling things. No doubt it will take centuries even millenia yet to become "perfect".. but i have no doubt that it can happen.

Well in that case denmark would be a nation of hypochondriacs.. Which i can assure you they are not. Free healthcare has only one result. A happier healthier population that is free of a basic burden to focus their minds and energies productively. It's a simple concept. If you are freed from the tension of SURVIVING, you have the energy to DEVELOP.

Again you have this awful notion that poor people invariably spend their money on booze and cigarettes. That's just a sweeping generalization that demonizes poor people. Let me tell you something about that.

It is true that poorer classes often have a higher level of dependence on various inebriating substances. However this is a result of their social situation. It is a direct indication of how painful it is to be poor and unable to afford even some BASIC HUMAN NEEDS. Addicts from under priveliged backgrounds aren't looking for a good time. They are trying to excape from the suckiness of everyday living. Given the choice between health insurance which may or may not save your life int he future, and the IMMEDIATE relief of various substances, it is hardly surprising that they often wrongly choose the option for immediate relief.

Well i think its VERY SAD that you have to be rich in order to matter. So your right to humane treatment should depend upon the size of your bank account?

Listen NOWHERE in the WORLD have the RICH ever been discriminated against in favor of the poor. It just does not happen.

Well the concept of a meritocracy is that a man is rewarded according to his ability. However in order for it to be a TRUE meritocracy, ALL participant in the race of life have to start at the same starting line. THAT is what i mean by equality.

If a person simply does not have access to basic survival needs like healthcare and basic success needs like education, then how can you claim that he is being rewarded according to his ability. I mean it's like handing one man a jackhammer and the other a feather duster and then asking them to compete on who can break a stone to pieces the quickest. DO you really think that the man with the jackhammer ( who will invariably win ) won the competition because of his ability? Nope my friend, he won because he just happened to have the tools available to him while the other did NOT.

Well we shall just have to agree to disagree. In a true democracy, the PEOPLE, through equal representation should decide. Setting taxes according to the wishes of the people is DEMOCRACY.


So what?? How does that affect the underpriveliged inner city youth who has no real opportunity to study or to stay healthy? A large penis doesn't protect you from cancer ( if you get the analogy)

Well nobody needs to take care of me. Thankfully i have supported myself from the time i left home at 18. In fact that past 2 years i have been supporting my family cuz my dad's business went bust. Now if we weren't lucky enough to be danish citizens, i don't even know if either of my parents would have surivived. Thanks to the availability of free healthcare, my mom got cancer treatment and my dad got heart surgery when it was needed. And it didn't matter how much money we were making.

While i understand the concept of individualism, you tell me.. How would YOU have felt if both your parents got terminally ill and you couldn't afford to have the treated. I want free healthcare for everybody in the world simply because i know what its like to not be able to afford treatment. Trust me, part of individual happiness is the feeling that your fellow man has the same facilities as yourself. Whether he deserves it or not. God will hold people accountable in the end. It is only my job to make sure everybody is taken care of. I'll do the caring, and leave the punishing to God.
[quote=Marilyn Monroe;73120]
Why if they are too high, and the government has too much money?

Well the american government has never had too much money, nor has any other government that i know of. I mean at least in america everything is grossly underfunded ( apart from the military ). So let's talk about THAT possiblity when it becomes a REALITY. OF COURSE there should be tax cuts if the government has nowhere to spend the money for the wellbeing of the citizens.. however that is not a reason to keep public institutions underfunded.
It is not possible for people to have equal ability. But it is CERTAINLY possible for people to have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. And that does not exist in the US ( and most other nations ) simply because SOME people can afford to have a good health and good education, while others CAN NOT. No matter how honest and hardworking a ghetto dweller is, he still has to fight a LOT HARDER than the guy with the Ivy league education, the best medical services int he world and the trust fund

hahahahaha.. well your military won't mean a thing when your citizens are dying of hunger, living under the stars, dying of curable diseases and dying by the thousands in disaster areas WITHIN THE NATION.

More people die in the US from lack of healthcare, gun related crime, pollution, poverty, malnutrition etc. than do from invasion, terrorism and other 'evil' foes.

The illusion that america could be invaded at any moment is an unwarranted fear continuously reinforced by successive administrations to make you citizens of america sacrifice your rights, your priveliges, your health, your education to fund the military. Is it not a bit suspicious that the government can't afford to pay for medical care for its citizens, but has such an abundance of money for war that 12 BILLION $ in CASH were mysteriously "lost" in Iraq.

I'm not attacking the fighting men and women and i am not attacking your right as a nation to defend yourself. I am just questioning how it is possible that BILLIONS can be thrown out the window with NO RESULTS TO SHOW FOR IT on one side, and yet people insist that there isn't money enough to spend on the health and wellbeing of the hard working civilians.

The statement was made that some people had to wait a week or sometimes two for treatment. That was the lie. While I agree that preventative care goes a long way, how do you prevent a cold???? Again you ignore the fact that many people who have free access to healthcare exploit its use.

But government administration is just that, incompetent. Look at all the time it takes to qualify for benefits. Sometimes months......Again you ignore the main contention, that with free access to healthcare comes misuse. We already see it with those who rely upon medicare and medicaid. Universal healthcare in this country will require year in and year out more money. Money that comes from the working men and women, giving them less and less of their own to take home.

Really!?!
89% of Americans own a car. Since when is 11% many. So it would seem that your comparison is inaccurate and therefore my original contention remains unimpeded.

See insurance companies have the right to deny a claim. The great thing about this fact is that it will help to prevent the misuse of the system, which causes the prices to increase. It will not cost the government more money, but rather less. By making health insurance mandatory, that means the demand will increase, and accordingly the price will decrease as the supply becomes more available. By people having a financial repsonsibility in how they use their care, people will be less likely to misuse the system. Year in and year people by life insurance, to protect families in case they die, if they don't die all that money they pay is wasted, but if they do, well then it paid off. The same is true of all insurances, home, auto, and even health. By buying a policy young, a person can lock in lower payments throughout the course of their life.

dmk

Do you notice that whenever you point out the fact they they only work for 9 months and then extrapolate what they would have made for working a whole year, the naysayers never respond. Isn't it amazing how the truth so readily quiets them.

dmk

Yet the USSR was the greatest example of socialism/communism that ever existed, and now it finds itself on the ash heap of history. And you are right no socialist ever defended Stalin or Lenin, they just ignored them and continued to proclaim the great virtues of the system. Yet in order to enforce the system you needed a Stalin and Lenin.

I stay in my field because I am good at my job, it pays well, and I enjoy the work that I do.

I am not making assumptions. I have never stated being against Medicaid or Medicare, or giving assistance to those who truly need it. I do have a problem with those who abuse the system. I have grown tired of seeing the drunks and the addicted come in and receive free health care while there are those in this country who work hard and cannot afford the treatment. That is my problem. The choices we make dictate the lives we lead, and unfortunately the safety nets have become so entangled with those who continue to make bad choices, alcohol and drug addicts, yet those who truly need the help slip through. I have no problem with helping those who work and still struggle, but have a big problem with those who don't work and receive all the help.

Again the choices we make dictate the lives we live. Hell even the UN has declared that single parent households are bad for children, hell that is something that conservatives and Republicans have been saying for the longest time, now perhaps since the UN has finally come out and said it, perhaps the left and the Democrats will finally listen. The single mother with children working two jobs is a result of the welfare bureaucracy. It punished those who sought to marry to take care of their children by not giving benefits, as result today nearly 1/3 of all children live in single parent households.

As far as ghetto dwellers, they have low incomes because of the high crime rates. Business do not wish to set up in places where they have to pay more for their business because of crime. The very people who need tough law enforcement measures are the ones who decry them the most. Again, choices made.
Unfortunately we cannot provide the care for everyone. That is the simple fact, and until such time as we find a way to help those who truly need the help then the problem will remain. Far too many people pay far too much in taxes, both income and payroll, to support those who are unwilling to support themselves. If you don't want to work, why should those of us who do have to take care of you. You made the choice no live with the consequences. If you don't like it, then change you lifestyle.

I agree that the system should get better but it is not. That example I gave you came from 2004. Bureaucracy will always be inefficient. They need to justify their existence so they seek to help as few as possible in order to show their need for additional funding. As long as we continue to reward incompetence at the expense of competence the system will never change. This is basic management theory that is taught to all who take Public Adminstration. Bureaucracies seek to perpertrate their own existence, by being slow and ineffiecient or always looking for new people to help.

First off I do not believe it is a good principle. Secondly I argue the inefficiency of its implementation merely as an example.

You talk in idealistic abstracts. Once you make something free, everyone will seek to abuse the system. It is that simple. I see it now with Medicaid and Medicare, with a universal system you will only see it worse.

And life ain't fair!!!!!! You are right, money talks and bullshit walks, but crying about it doesn't change it. What does is figuring out why you are in the situation you are in and making changes to your own life to changes. Quit making excuses and do something about it or you deserve what you get.

And taxes fall under the law, so immediately you are ignoring equality.

But our country is based upon equality not upon who can afford it. Everyone should be treated the same, thus equally. ANytime you set out to treat one group different than another you break that promise.

The ability for Mr Gates to keep most of what he made is what made his creativity take off. He was not hindered by having to worry that for his hard work, the government would take his property and use if for all, instead he was able to create and sell to make his own profit.

The full implementation of socialism does exactly that. The basic premise will remain that from each according to his ability to each according to his need. Those with need will receive more and those with ability will be required to provide more, eventually it leads to a system will people will all want and nobody will want to provide.

But it is a punishment for those who work hard and succeed. Most Americans value hard work and taking care of their own, so why should they be forced to allow government to do this, this is not what our country was founded upon, nor is it what we want. THose in this country who do want it should move to where it is offered, and allow those of us working to get ahead to do so. It has been our desire and drive that have made us the largest economic country in the world. It is why the US leads in all types of discoveries that have benefited man in the past 50 years.


Taxes ensure nothing, they demand it. Charity is the voluntary giving, and this country has remained the most charitable in the world year in and year out, despite our heavy tax burden. Year in and year out we continue to give money to charities that help individuals, most of which do so more effectively than government ever could.

Cutting taxes leads to growth, more jobs and more opportunities.

Socialism is slavery and will always be slavery....sorry you don't recognize it, but then you have always known it so perhaps you do not understand what freedom means.

dmk

It hasn't happened yet. I'm living now not in the future.

It's not "free", you're paying for it, it's just getting redistributed. You still have to survive. You have to have money to live and eat. You can never get rid of that tension. Impossible.

You have an awful notion about rich people that is a sweeping generalization, also.

I think it's dimwittedness. Suckiness of daily living is everywhere. I gotta get up at 4:00 in the morning to catch a bus, then work for 10hrs., catch another bus, then I'm so exhauted I can hardly wait to go to bed. You create your own paradise. It's in your head.

You have to matter to yourself first.

Martha Stewart didn't catch a huge break. Enron had some people go down pretty hard. They really didn't get out of anything. Being rich actually probably hurt them to a degree.

All people could be given the exact same starting point and the same people would be the doers and the same people the receivers. Everybody doesn't have the same intellect, or energy level.

Healthcare is really extremely important to older folks. That's when things start to go haywire. It's true some people are born with ailments, but the healthy ones shouldn't really start acquiring ongoing problems till around age 40.

If you are unhealthy, healthcare isn't going to make you more productive I wouldn't think. You might live longer, and have a slight increase in quality of life, but it's hard to say how much more productive you would be. If you smoke and drink you might acquire problems from that, or be an unreliable employee, but HC isn't going to be able to help you. Sometimes you have to take care of yourself. Doctor's in MHO are pill pushers. It's a lot of hit and miss. I know in Sweden and some of those countries everybody smokes. This has to put a tremendous burden on HC. Eventually the countries that have HC are going to have to do something about this. The US did so long ago, and smoking has been on the decline for quite some time now. I'd guess that it's at 24% population-wise as opposed to 40 yrs ago when it was like 50%.

I believe the bubble will burst on a lot of the socialistic programs that have taken hold in so many countries.

This is true. The people should decide through their elected representatives. Problem is in a democracy people vote themselves more money many times.

We've had surpluses. If you have too many public institutions that aren't effective why keep funding them? Because once something is it's hard to get it to be isn't.


I don't see this happening.

Yes indeed.

My sons & I used to do a rather large lawn-care business (while they were still living at home).

ANY school teacher, with any drive, could do the EXACT same thing. He/she is "off" during the really busy time for mowing. They could make an extra $3000-$4000 per year, if they simply chose to work during the summer (like most of us have to anyway).


I have a LOT of respect for teachers, but I really get sick of hearing all the complaints about being overworked and underpaid.