Originally Posted by hkbajwa

It may not be much to talk about, but there is no nation on the planet that would concede even a square foot of territory without serious reservations and without ensuring that their sovereignity is not threatened. It is not a small matter.

Besides if it's just a matter of the size of NJ then it could have placed on the territories of one of the nations that supported its creation.

Be that as it may, Israel is a reality and the muslims are just going to have to learn to live with it. However it is not easy when all they see is Israel with overwhelming firepower , suppresing the palestinians. If the palestinians resort to terrorist means, i do not find it at all suprising. When you have no weapons, several million refugees, at the mercy of an outsider, constant encroachments upon your land, attacks upon your sovreignty in helicopters, and nobody in the world willing to accept your legally and fairly elected government, can you blame some misguided youths falling for the rhetoric of religious power brokers?

While i do not find it acceptable to hate an ethnicity or religion, let's not pretend that the palestinians have no reason to dislike the jews. This is not a matter of who's good and who's bad. It's just a statement of fact.
When muslims in the rest of the world rant about jews, that is more a function of their own lousy situations. Muslim countries have a ton of problems and sometimes it's just easier to blame somebody else. What they should do is stop whining about the jews and start working on their internal problems.
However for the palestinians, the jews ARE an internal problem.

Note i said jews and not israel as i equate the two. The reason being that i have heard that the Israeli constitution does not allow for anybody being a full israeli citizen unless they are jewish. Is that true? If so i foresee another problem. if no then ma bad

Originally Posted by Dylan

Israel has a special signifigance to the Jewish people, although I suppose Israel really could have gone anywhere. It's there now though, and I don't see why it shouldn't be able to stay there. Israel doesn't even have any oil. The only reason it is worth anything is because of the efforts of the sabras. They made the desert bloom.

To be a full citizen, it is not necissary to be Jewish. However, the right of return, or instant citizenship, is reserved for Jewish people. Approximately 15% of full Israeli citizens are Arab. If the Palestinians really wanted too, they could request citizenship and have all of the rights and priveleges of the Israeli Jews.

Originally Posted by hevusa

What if your father is Jewish, like in my case? Does it have to be a maternal lineage (like in the religious view)?

Originally Posted by Dylan

In the strictly religious sense, you have to have maternal lineage. However, in Israeli law, only one of your grandparents has to be Jewish, since that was the standard the Nazis used to determine who was Jewish and who wasn't. So... Yes, you could become an Israeli citizen if you wanted to.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Israel has a special signifigance to the Jewish people, although I suppose Israel really could have gone anywhere. It's there now though, and I don't see why it shouldn't be able to stay there. Israel doesn't even have any oil. The only reason it is worth anything is because of the efforts of the sabras. They made the desert bloom.

To be a full citizen, it is not necissary to be Jewish. However, the right of return, or instant citizenship, is reserved for Jewish people. Approximately 15% of full Israeli citizens are Arab. If the Palestinians really wanted too, they could request citizenship and have all of the rights and priveleges of the Israeli Jews.

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

I agree. Israel exists and it would be best if people just accepted that so that the world could move on. The solution to the conflict does not lie in complete destruction of one party. However. personally i think a big step would be if Israel would stop cliaming that the land is theirs by right. If the same standard was to be applied everywhere int he world, the red indians would have the full right to kick out all other US citizens. I mean the americas were THEIRS until yu folks came along.

Nevertheless it is comforting to know that you can be an israeli citizen regardless of ehtnic or religious background.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

If we're going to play that game, WHO DID THE LAND BELONG TO BEFORE THE "PALESTINIANS" CAME ALONG?


Bottom line: Muslims need to leave Israel alone. Stop the constant suicide bombers going into Israel. It is absurd, asinine and evil.

Originally Posted by aMFliberal

That's easy for you to say because you are an American. If you were Palestinian, I doubt you'd be saying the same thing. The problem needs to be ended somehow but just telling Palestinians to give it up won't get you anywhere.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

The land belonged to Israel LONG BEFORE there was even such an entity as "the Palestinians". Therefore, if the Palestinians are going to claim "prior ownership" they need to be honest and admit that the land belonged to Israel LONG BEFORE it belonged to them.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

So where does it end?

At what point in history do you revert to?

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Bottom line: Palestinians need to LEAVE ISRAEL ALONE. Stop sending in suicide bombers, then claiming to be victims.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Muslims need to STOP trying to annihilate Israel.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

It has to stop NOW. There's no way to "revert back to" some time in history...

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

Just like america belonged to the red indians. If you remember, the Plestinians never claimed prior ownership. In fact when the state of Israel was created, the Palestinians claimed PRESENT ownership. That is what they claim even NOW.

The land never belonged to Israel EVER as there was never any state called israel prior to its creation in '48. How can something that has never existed claim prior ownership?

I think the only thing we can agree on is that just because a people once lived in a certain area, is not a valid reason for them to return and create an independent state smack in the middle of everything else. How would you feel if the Sioux tribe decided that they own New York and decided that it was theirs to govern without any interference from the US government. Because they could do that employing the same logic by which Israel was created.

However politics as it is today must be based in the present and not int he past. Israel exists, and there is nothing anybody can do about it. The muslims world must accept ath Isreal exists and they better start dealing with it.

But dealing with it does not mean sitting back and accepting the dictates of Israel. The palestinians are living in absolutely horrific conditions. They are given no say in their own lives. Israel decides everything.

Let's say the Sioux started dictating US foreign policy, US defence policy, US fiscal policy, and took over US sea and air ports. Would you say "ok this land was yours centuries ago so we are just gonna sit and wait for you to make your decidion.

OR

Would you take up arms and fight against the usurpers of your sovreignty?

Because whatever you can say you would do, you can demand of the palestinians. Whatever you would not do, you cannot ask the palestinians to do.

Dude they ARE victims. 10 Palestinians die from hunger, disease and rocket attacks for every 1 Israeli that dies in a suicide attack. You are welcome to compare fatality rates of the two nations.

I agree. No way to move on otherwise


No doubt. In that case Israel also needs to claim historical rights to the land. As i mentioned earlier, the palestinians never said "we USED to own this land" they said "we OWN this land". It was the jews who came in from outside and laid claim based on history