Defending the Truth

Ummm yeah.. I stand corrected. Ma bad.

Nevertheless it doesn't change the fact that if Israel is going to claim prior ownership, the red indians of america can claim prior ownership and tell you to get the hell out.

Besides i find it suspect that bloodline is what qualifies a people to come in and lay claim to that which was lost by their forefathers. Like if only ethnically Sioux, Lakotha or Kiowa come and say that they own north america. Hey their forefathers OWNED america. doesn't that give them the right?

Still i think the muslims need to move on. International politics moves like this, and now they must make peace. However that doesn't change the fact that the palestinians need to be treated like humans before you can have peace.

Fair enough.

However, comparing the current United States to the middle-East debacle is rather fallacious.

Also, there will NEVER be an end to the "that used to be our land" argument. Some of the Native American Indians that were "run off their land" when the White Man came, had annihilated and run off different tribe shortly before the White man arrived. So WHICH Native American Indians did the land really belong to?

In addition, in real life you cannot simply hit "reset" and start over - especially when dealing with whole nations, races, religions and people groups. Part of the reason is that you will NEVER reach a consensus concerning what "point in history" you revert to.


But you're right - the Muslims need to move on. They need to become peaceful if they're ever to be taken seriously. And the Palestinians need to start behaving as humans before they demand to be treated as humans. Terrorism will NEVER bring peace. Ever.

I think it's great that we agree that the "we used to own this" argument is not a valid reason.

Much antipathy against the west stems precisely from this unfair justification for the creation of Israel.

Regarding palestinian behaviour. Look one day you have your own country. the next day suddenly you are subject to an outsider. You say that they should not get violent. Can you honestly tell me that YOU would not get this violent if some other nation suddenly came and claimed your country? Are you telling me that you would sit back and behave? are you telling me that you would wait until the occupier allows you before you do anything??

Don't judge the palestinian behaviour when you cannot claim to behave ANY better if you were in the same situation.

Still the violence should stop, but a first step in that direction would be the acceptance of their democratically elected government. I mean can you not understand the anger and fury? They elected hamas fair and square. Who the hell is the US or ANYBODY else to say that it's not good enough?

If the elected palestinian party does not accept the existence of Israel that is a PROBLEM. But as elected representatives, of a sovereign nationthey are ALLOWED to do so. Pakistan does not accept Israel. You don't see the US disregarding president musharraf because of that.

The international community has an obligation to accept the fairly elected government. and THEN they should employ means other than fiscal bullying to convince the government to change it's stance.

Once the palestinians feel they are being represented, they can stop the violence. But not until they stop feeling fucked over.

They NEVER will feel that way. Thus, they NEVER will stop the mindless violence.

I disagree.

Are you telling me that it is impossible for humans to work out their differences?

At every turn of human civilization, communities have gotten bigger. This has happened because a larger and larger number of humans were able to agree on a social structure.

What makes you think this process has suddenly stopped?

I'm telling you that the Muslim mullah's and radical clerics have - for several generations - pounded into the heads of Palestinians that they MUST destroy Israel. In fact, one of the central mantras of Muslims is that Israel MUST be annihilated.

Until the leaders of the Muslim religion preach a different tune, and LEAD in the area of peace, there will NEVER be peace. And that will take GENERATIONS, if it EVER happens.

YOU personally seem to be a very good example of a peaceful Muslim. But I believe you are the exception, not the rule - and like it or not, that is the world's perception of Islam.

That's easy for you to say, because you're not a Jew.

There was a kingdom of Judea. It was even a province of the Roman empire for a while, unless you happen to think ghosts, fairies, and unicorns build the old city of Jerusalem. The Jews have just as much claim to the land as the Palestinians.

I do agree that the conditions for the Palestinians are terrible. However, that's because their government was corrupt and embezzling aid money.

The Holocaust was terrible, perhaps one of the biggest failures of human kind that such a thing could happen. That doesn't mean an entire people deserved to get kicked out of their homes in return. By the way, the Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust. The Jews should have gotten Germany.

Once again, easy for you to say.