Originally Posted by Dylan

There was a kingdom of Judea. It was even a province of the Roman empire for a while, unless you happen to think ghosts, fairies, and unicorns build the old city of Jerusalem. The Jews have just as much claim to the land as the Palestinians.

I do agree that the conditions for the Palestinians are terrible. However, that's because their government was corrupt and embezzling aid money.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

I'm telling you that the Muslim mullah's and radical clerics have - for several generations - pounded into the heads of Palestinians that they MUST destroy Israel. In fact, one of the central mantras of Muslims is that Israel MUST be annihilated.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

Until the leaders of the Muslim religion preach a different tune, and LEAD in the area of peace, there will NEVER be peace. And that will take GENERATIONS, if it EVER happens.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

YOU personally seem to be a very good example of a peaceful Muslim. But I believe you are the exception, not the rule - and like it or not, that is the world's perception of Islam.

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

It's only been about 60 years. That is the blink of an eye in terms of social development. The pakis and indians have grown up with MASSIVE propoganda against each other for 60 years. However we are managing to make it work with the indians slowly.

Like i have said many times, the muslim ullahs are a bigger problem for muslims than for anyone else. We want to stop this hate rhetoric also.

However there is a catch for regular muslims. Becauce of the sharp lines of division, there is no space to disagree with BOTH the WEST AND the Mullahs. Most muslims don't agree with 9/11 type acts. But neither do they agree that the world is handling the palestinian conflict fairly. As a result we tend to gravitate towards that side which will firstly accept us. Though i wish it wasn't the case. Most young muslims are not comfortable with bearded nuts representing our religion.

I agree that the muslims certainly SHOULD lead in the area of peace. But you must understand that the palestinian conflict isn't so much religious for the palestinians as it is national. It is not an ideological conflict. It is a conflict of survival. Hence peace is hard to talk of.

Regarding muslim leaders, i believe that majority of them should be carted off and shot in the head. BUT that does not equate to giving up their points. Many of the demands of moderate muslims are the same as the cleric nuts. So even if we get passivist muslims leading, the demands are going to change VERY little.


I agree that it is a problem of perception. While i am at the liberal end of islamic thought, i am not so far removed from the common muslim. The common muslim is suffering stunted spiritual growth because of the bearded crazies. Don't you unders tand that we have to fight the mullahs more than you do? And we can't fight them as long as YOU are fighting them. The reason is that as it is, the west only listen to the bearded crazies. If we were to knock these nuts out ( which would be SUPER difficult because of their indoctrination) who would then watch the interests of the muslims? Not the west, as we have issues with the west.

You understand the rock and the hard place situation that we are in?

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

No offence dude. Prior ownership of a land is not justification for returning and taking it back against the wills of the present incumbents.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Well, we had no land but private property in the countries we were allowed to own it in (Russian Jews weren't allowed to own land, for example). That chunk of land happened to have special signifigance. Saudi Arabia was a British colony for quite a while. What claim did Arabs have to take it back?

Originally Posted by Dylan

No, it wasn't. However, it was the inhabitants of many other lands that expelled and massacred the Jews, Muslim and Christian alike.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Well, maybe if certain Muslim charities spent less on giving stipends to the widows of suicide bombers and more on actually giving real aid, things would be easier. Israel uses the money it gets from America to actually improve the country. The fact of the matter is that the government embazzled milliions, at least, money that could have gone to schools, water, medical care, etc.

Originally Posted by Dylan

I actually think that the election of Hamas was positive, but for a different reason. If they become political, they will eventually be forced to compromise in order to retain power. It's my understanding that Hamas was elected on an anti-corruption platform though. Many people voted for Hamas simply because they weren't Fatah, who had cheated the people out of money that could have gone to services.

Originally Posted by Dylan

The world won't talk to the Palestinians right now BECAUSE Hamas was elected, and Hamas refuses to acknowlege the existence of Israel, and also wishes to wipe it off the face of the Earth (which is contradictory, if you think about it...) There has been a dialogue for years. Hamas does not represent the Palestinians in any way aside from their desire for change, change from the mismanagement of the Fatah party. Hamas is fundamentalist, and most Palestinians have not been fundamentalist. Hamas is extremist, and I think even most Palestinians want peace.

Originally Posted by Dylan

I acknowlege that the election was valid, but when you're stuck between voting for corrupt officials who have been bleeding you dry for years, and some new guys who seem kind of crazy, but hey, they give free day care and schooling to little kids, and soup kitchens...
Well, who would you vote for?

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

Firstly i think you make good observations of the situation. good show. Now i'll proceed to mess with what you said



Considering they were the inhabitants of the land, the Arabs certainly had MORE of a claim that the jews. The brits gave back india to the indians. Why not palestine to the palestinians?

Yeah it was the europeans who committed the atrocities against the jews. Why then must the palestinians move out of their lands?
Does it seem fair that the palestinians should pay for the sins of the europeans? The europeans should ahve given them land in europe. Not somewhere far far away.

I agree completely with that. However inability to do the right thing is a function of deplorable conditions. That said, it is not an excuse and it is my hope that the money gets used as properly as in Israel.

That too may have some truth to it. Hamas definately wa the lesser of two evils. However that does not mean that ALL of Hamas' ideology be dismissed as not representative. Lets say most palestinians DO want the elimination of Israel ( not a far fetched thing to assume considering the hate the palestinians feel due to their horrible conditions). Are they not allowed to want that? Are they not allowed to elect a government that wants that? This is not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of whether they have the right to want something.

Palestinians wanting peace is not the same as palestinians wanting to shut up and take it up the ass. Hamas represents their sovereignty. The Palestinians want peace, but not by blindly accepting all dictates from aborad. Hamas has shown that it takes no orders. And the Palestinians like ANY OTHER NATION will take no orders.


Hamas for sure.

There is another matter to adress too though. WHy was Hamas the only alternative?

I believe the reason for that is that as long as palestine does not have its sovereignty, there is no way a political party can establish itself. Fatah established itself through the intifada. Hamas established itself through the intifada. Both their main political parties only survived because they refused to work within the limitations set by Israel and the world. In the end the world had NO CHOICE but to listen.

That is a major point. Until and unless there is an unconditional acceptance of palestinian sovereignty ( that includes acceptance of ANY government they elect) by ALL parties, there can no constructive internal politics.

If the palestinians feel that their government will be accepted unconditionally, they can take the next step which is challenging their own government. That means that they will have the confidence that they are being heard. Once they feel they are being heard, they will start thinking about what they are saying. One reason Hamas was elected was that no matter what they are, AT LEAST the world listens to them.

Let the palestinians feel that they have a voice and you will see a dramatic reduction in violence.

Originally Posted by alias

That land is both of theirs. Israel is willing to share. Palestine is going to have to share that land. The Jews are not going away. It's a done deal.

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

i agree that the jews are not going away. Thast is the step that the palestinians must take. THey must accept this state of affairs. But they will not accept anything willingly as long as :

Israel encroaches upon their land with their settlements

Israel controls their airspace and waters

Israel refuses to accord the palestinians their rights.


While the violence of suicide bombings is abhorrent, you must understand that in the minds of palestinians, the violence is a REACTION to the above injustices.

This is not a matter of who is right and who is wrong. I am merely relating the state of afffairs. THe palestinians feel fucked over. ANd when you gotten fucked over, AND you're hungry, AND you have no economy, AND you are at the mercy of a foreign power, AND you have several million refugees, AND your fairly elected government is not accepted, it's not so hard to understand thast they view their violence as a fight against oppression.

Originally Posted by Lucidthots

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Israel needs terror and anti semitism in order to exist.

That is why the Zionists funded Hitler.

That is why Israel funded Hammas.

Without terror and anti Semitism....Israel would be overrun with Arabs and they would rename the land.....PALESTINE.


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