The Obama Bubble is about to Burst

indago · 03-13-2008, 06:41 AM

garysher wrote:

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You mean you support abolishing the electoral college?

Katczinsky wrote:

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Yes. I think it's a sad state of affairs when a panel of judges can overturn the popular vote of the people in a Presidential election.

Contrary to popular belief, and the particular phrasing uttered by Abraham Lincoln in a short speech that he gave at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania in November, 1863, that the United States government is a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people", the United States government is a corporation created by the States to perform certain functions that they were unable, or unwilling, to perform. Each State is a corporation, created by the people within that State; the hierarchical arrangement being declared in Article Ten of the Bill of Rights, which declares: "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people". The federal government is not a peoples government, but a creation of the States. The "Chairman of the Board", or President, is, therefore, selected by vote of Electors from the States.

The function of the Electoral College is explained in the Constitution of the United States, in Article 2 Section 2, and the twelfth amendment. The party that wins the most votes in a state receives all of its electoral college votes. Votes cast for defeated candidates do not count.

In the United States presidential election of 1876, the Democratic candidate, Samuel J. Tilden, received 4,284,020 popular votes; the Republican Rutherford B. Hayes received 4,036,572 popular votes; but Hayes became president. Similarly, Benjamin Harrison got fewer popular votes than did Grover Cleveland in the 1888 presidential election.

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highway80west · 03-13-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

You mean you support abolishing the electoral college?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

Yes. I think it's a sad state of affairs when a panel of judges can overturn the popular vote of the people in a Presidential election.

There was one presidential election where a candidate got more of the popular votes, but lost on the electoral college.

So why have the popular vote when the electoral college decides who the next president will be? And vice versa.

Katczinsky · 03-13-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highway80west

There was one presidential election where a candidate got more of the popular votes, but lost on the electoral college.

So why have the popular vote when the electoral college decides who the next president will be? And vice versa.

It would be helpful if you read the post above your's.

highway80west · 03-13-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

It would be helpful if you read the post above your's.

Whoops. Thanks.

Gadgetory · 03-14-2008, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuttyjoe

I have never said that we can't talk about race. I have said on many occasions that Obama does not make this the central point of his campaign. He won't, because the "good judgment" theme is much better, and is obviously sticking in the minds of the voters. How many families with a wounded or dead relative who served in Iraq do you think are blaming the Republicans for their loss? I would venture to say that it is a very high number.
Now, when you listen to the complaints of our economy, and the cost per month of this war; what comes to mind now? Now, add to this McCain's statement that he thinks we could be in Iraq for another hundred years. How do you see the economy?
Lastly, look at the price of gasoline. You might not have lost a relative in Iraq; (I have not yet) but I use gasoline. Why didn't America tie our involvement in Iraq to preferential oil prices at the very least? Do you not think Americans see this? I'm willing to bet that it crosses their mind each and every time they pull into a gas station.
All in all, to me; I believe that the Republicans will not be in the White House for at least another 16 more years.
Now, does that mean Obama is any better than any other candidate? Of course not. His lead means that he is driving home to America the vale of good judgment; and we can all feel the cost of the lack of good judgment.
As far as race keeps coming up; I think America is just tired of hearing about it. We have turned away from the social thought of the '50's and '60's. where such a thought of a Black even running for the Presidency,let alone doing as well as Obama is; would have qualified you for the looney bin- and in some southern states got you lynched.
But you are correct, Obama is capitalizing from "race talk" every time it comes up. Now, Geraldine Ferraro has helped him even more.
What I meant about the example of Wyoming is that it is obvious that Obama is reaching the hearts, minds, and ballots of White America to be in the position he is in. Yes, these are small states, but he has won enough of them to keep his lead and offset the recent wins of Hillary in Ohio and Texas. FX is correct; Hillary must start winning by 15 to 20 percent points to cut into his lead. And she hasn't shown that she can do that yet- and there aren't that many more primaries to go.

He is a black man race is an integral part of his capaign. He doesn't have to say he is black we can all see he is. You live in some lala land whereby you think it doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter but it actually does and here is why. (BTW To vote in the GOP primaries you have to be a registered member of the GOP. Dems always out poll them in the primaries.)

Ferraro represents a huge porprtion of this country who think he is where he is because he happens to be a black man. She didn't help him but gave a voice to all the people who feel disenfranchised because for some unknown reason white people are not allowed to say anything about race without being called racist when in fact these people are not racist, they just don't give a sh1t and want to get the hell on with it. You might feel she is wrong but a bucket load of people also agree with her and are confused as to why its OK for Obama to mention race but not for her. These people feel disenfranchised and are a larger part of the population then you may want to believe. . I personally know people who think she is correct but may have also added he is a fine orator and a good politician. . His campaign while wonderfully idealistic is not really realistic..the rest of the world resents us forcing ourselves on them and he strategies will do this more ..he wants to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.

Why I personally don't like him. When Hilary spoke at MLK she was rebuked by him for racial insensitivity and racial slurs because she had the gall to state the obvious without the President signing the Civil Rights Bill and support of the majority of Congress (pretty much all white people) we'd not be this far ahead with regards to Civil Rights. Which to my mind is a fine example of America working together for the betterment of its people. It started as a grassroots movement amongst African Americans and grew to the pont whereby we were working together. The 50's and 60's mentality that you say has come to an end was actually people working together, there was opposition but opposition is merely the sign of a healthy free society. Being divided on issues is the sign of a healthy free and democratic society. Obama supporters sound like robots to me who all want us to chant in Big Brother style "yes we can" and if you think I am that special I'm the only one you're wrong but I will vote democrat no matter what because well I always do. But I am not everyone else. There are pics of me as a young child with my parents (my very white Irish Catholic parents), at Civil rights marches, (yes I am that old), I take offence to the idea that white people and black people were not both responsbile for what in my mind is one of the greatest achievements in modern American History. Sure it didn't solve every issue but what an achievement it was.

You still miss the point I never said Obama doesn't have appeal to white people of course he does. But clearly neither he or Hilary are going to be able to win by delegates alone he isn't as appealing as you assume either. I am concerned with swing voters in middle America who are currently being told we are in recession. Lets just say for the sake of this argument Obama is the Dems candidate. So their choices are Mr I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. Or a guy who has a long history in office who is generally known to be an economic conservative.

It has nothing to do with Obama's ability but everything to do with lack of experience. And McCain will appeal to middle America and the swing voters when they are faced with economic uncertainty. People just don't go for someone they'd bever heard of before 18 months ago who has no hisotry and no experience. Sure Hilarys experience as a legislature isn't great either but she has soemthing neither one of the others have, she lived in the White House, she personally knows many of the worlds leaders, she is also a person who has spent the majority of her adult life fighting for better health care for everyone, fighting for the lower and working class. Obama doesn't have such a widely known history , he just says he does. Hilary has more of a chance of providing a better alternative to middle America. And she does have the gender issue to over-come and its a big issue for her but she has more of a chance and you've provided no counter evidence as to how Obama is going to overcome his inexperience expect to assume more people think like you then currently do because clearly even democrats can't decide.

Wyoming is not going to vote for a Democrat candidate. they are of little or no concern..you've still not addressed the issue at hand the swing states...because like it or not we haven't all of us turned away from the 50's and 60's thought which si why Fundamentalists Christain religions are growing at a fast rate in this country. Its why more then 50% of peopel, in this country don't agree with gay marriage. And why a large proprtion fo the country don't understand why they can't mention race without being called a racist when indeed it wasn't their intent. People do believe and it may or may not be true that qualified yet under experienced black people take their jobs and have advantages they don't have. I personally don't believe this to be true but they believe this because they don't want the answer to be their own inadequecies. Further when faced with economic uncertainty many people will go with the familiar, with what they know. Welcome to reality

Katczinsky · 03-14-2008, 12:26 PM

Gagetory, last time I checked it is Clinton voters who say they support Hillary because she is a woman. Here goes Hillary supporters crying victim again, that they can't talk about race issues. Complete rubbish. A Clinton supporter has all the right to say they support Clinton merely because she is a woman and that supports the feminist cause, whilst an Obama supporter would be ridiculed for saying they're voting for him merely because he's black.

Obama polls across demographics. Exit poll after exit poll showed that Clinton's base mainly lies with white women; the largest voting bloc.

While polling data indeed shows racial divisions, those racial divisions actually have been shown to work in favor of Hillary Clinton. Have you forgotten that African American voters are a minority in the United States? Ferroro is right when she says that the election would be much different if Obama was white; he'd already be our nominee.

Whilst had Hillary Clinton been a male and had a different last name she would not have been a viable candidate. Truly, as her campaign has mostly been based on the illusion of inevitability and 'experience'. Truth is she doesn't have much more experience than Obama. This experience bullshit is getting annoying. By her logic the wives of major league baseball players are viable candidates to become baseball players. Truth is, Obama has more experience than Abraham Lincoln at the time of his election, and he's older than both the Presidential candidates of Bill Clinton and JFK. History shows us that experience doesn't always necessarily mean a good Presidency, but even more important is the ability to bring a dynamic of fresh perspectives.

All 'experience' means in this campaign is just how much you're in bed with K-street and corruption in Washington. That is what a lot of people think, and the fact that Obama is giving a voice to those disenfranchised is why he is such a good candidate by the value of his character and not (as the Clinton camp would have us believe) by the color of his skin. Whilst Clinton in her sarcasm is frequently giving a voice to the defeatists which is why she is so repulsive to many Democratic voters. The loss of Obama would be like the loss of Bobby Kennedy. The strength of Obama's campaign isn't just his ability to overwhelmingly woo independent voters over McCain and Hillary, but his ability to energize the left and get people out to vote for him who would not have otherwise voted. That's what these 'head-to-head' polls against McCain don't show (polls of which he still beats Hillary in).

knot_e_lady · 03-14-2008, 12:58 PM

Spot on, Kat.

highway80west · 03-14-2008, 01:10 PM

Democrats Fret Over Warring Words - AOL News

Let them fight if they want.

nuttyjoe · 03-14-2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

Gagetory, last time I checked it is Clinton voters who say they support Hillary because she is a woman. Here goes Hillary supporters crying victim again, that they can't talk about race issues. Complete rubbish. A Clinton supporter has all the right to say they support Clinton merely because she is a woman and that supports the feminist cause, whilst an Obama supporter would be ridiculed for saying they're voting for him merely because he's black.

Obama polls across demographics. Exit poll after exit poll showed that Clinton's base mainly lies with white women; the largest voting bloc.

While polling data indeed shows racial divisions, those racial divisions actually have been shown to work in favor of Hillary Clinton. Have you forgotten that African American voters are a minority in the United States? Ferroro is right when she says that the election would be much different if Obama was white; he'd already be our nominee.

Whilst had Hillary Clinton been a male and had a different last name she would not have been a viable candidate. Truly, as her campaign has mostly been based on the illusion of inevitability and 'experience'. Truth is she doesn't have much more experience than Obama. This experience bullshit is getting annoying. By her logic the wives of major league baseball players are viable candidates to become baseball players. Truth is, Obama has more experience than Abraham Lincoln at the time of his election, and he's older than both the Presidential candidates of Bill Clinton and JFK. History shows us that experience doesn't always necessarily mean a good Presidency, but even more important is the ability to bring a dynamic of fresh perspectives.

All 'experience' means in this campaign is just how much you're in bed with K-street and corruption in Washington. That is what a lot of people think, and the fact that Obama is giving a voice to those disenfranchised is why he is such a good candidate by the value of his character and not (as the Clinton camp would have us believe) by the color of his skin. Whilst Clinton in her sarcasm is frequently giving a voice to the defeatists which is why she is so repulsive to many Democratic voters. The loss of Obama would be like the loss of Bobby Kennedy. The strength of Obama's campaign isn't just his ability to overwhelmingly woo independent voters over McCain and Hillary, but his ability to energize the left and get people out to vote for him who would not have otherwise voted. That's what these 'head-to-head' polls against McCain don't show (polls of which he still beats Hillary in).

I definitely agree with Kat's assessment of experience; and how Hillary keeps using this word. What has she really had experience in? She is claiming many years of government service. Doesn't she really mean she is married to Bill, the person who held those offices? I think America sees this.

Gadgetory · 03-14-2008, 06:22 PM

And I have said that some her supporters support her because she is a woman..she has said some of her supporters support her because she is a woman ..she has also said that she'd not be in the position she is in as a woman without already being a household name. So I never denied it..

what I did say is we need to stop pretending that people are not supporting Obama because of his race. And if he really wants to open conversations with people perhaps he could start with his fellow countryman and stop calling everyone a racist who mentions or says something about his race or race generally. Its a cop out position, its a throw away easy target, that is really hard to rebutt given the fact the media isn't inerested in news but in the most sensational headline they can think of. Anyone that isn't one of his supporters that mention his race gets painted racist which not only makes his lets not be divisive stance rubbish but pisses people off.

I never said he wasn't appealing to people, I never said he wasn't a good politician and good public speaker, which is something we have been missing these past 7 years. What I did say is calling everyone a racist who happens to think like Ferraro or who mention his race a racist is divisive and dis-enfranchises people. Some of these people are democrats and will vote democrat no matter who is the candidate but some fo them are going to resent it and vote for McCain (who is going to be the GOP candidate unless they decide for some weird reason not to give him the nod at the Convention). These are the people I am concerned about. Also Hilary has won every single swing state..lets just pretend the status quo will stay and look at swing states, she is more appealing to people in swing States. Hilary has bought out people to vote in primaries who normally do not as well. Why even pretend she hasn't, she isn;t that far behind.

I believe what Obama has done is a great fantastic given our country but I also think what Hilary has done is also one. I am suprprised at the amount of people who in an effort to not sound racist sound like sexist pigs. But he is going to get his butt kicked because his kumbahyah lets teach the world to sing in harmony style only appeals to a certain and limited amount of people, other people think he is a pretentious idealist (as opposed to realist) and or isn't going to win they'd be the people voting for Hilary and McCain because anyone can vote in the Dems primary even a registered member of the GOP.

All experience means in DC is being able to come back with a really good sound bite..McCain is great at them..Obama sort of sucks (racist and we can do it) and Hilary is somewhere in between she is pretty hit and miss.

Obama said about Lincoln Lets not pretend he was the great emancipator.....not that I ever pretended he was but talk about undermine what was a pretty amazing achievement for its time. Give Lincoln his dues.

If he is the Dems candidate he has to stop calling people racists everytime they mention he happens to be black or has a question about it and talk with them or else his whole campaign is way to easily painted as a load of horse crap. McCain is going to go hey Mr lets talk to our enemies you can't even have a dialogue with your own countryman how the hell are you going to get people who don't want to talk to us to talk when you can't even talk to your own countryman. Obama isn't wooing independent voters he is attractive to people who watched to much Star Trek and believe the Prime Directive and African Americans. I have Black friends who voted for him because he is black, they think he speaks a shit load of crap but he is black and so voted for him.

Interesting you should mention JFK..he had an affair and got us into Vietnam. The good thing about Hilary is there is no dirt everyone knows everything about her because her husband did weird things with cigars and the GOP went after him for it...