Katczinsky

I do not deny that there are people who vote for Obama because of his race. What I reject is the notion that his campaign relies on his race; at least to the degree that Clinton's campaign relies on her sex.

You frequently complain about Obama calling people 'racist'; I'm curious as to at least one example of such a cop-out.

One thing I have to hand to Hillary was her ability to dupe voters in my home state of Ohio into believing her lies on NAFTA. The primary voting bloc in Ohio are white women, including a lot of old white women. But aside from that a lot of labor Democrats for some odd reason supported Clinton after Edwards dropped out. Maybe it has to do something with the complete BS story of Obama going to the Canadian government and informing that his stances on NAFTA were just temporary campaign rhetoric. We know now from higher sources in the Canadian government that in actuality it was the Clinton campaign that went to the Canadian government

The Clinton's were the ones that originally pushed NAFTA, and Hillary consistently voted to retain NAFTA provisions. So, I do have to hand it to her and her husband their skills in dirty politics.

But I think the point is, is that people want to get away from the same-old dirty politics, multi-personalities, and straight-out lies. This is why Obama is attractive.

I consider myself a realist; and I believe someone has to be a naive idealist to the fullest capacity of that word's meaning to believe that electing Clinton would bring change to Washington. A realist knows that Hillary Clinton is one of the most 'involved' among Washington Democrats with big business and special interests.

Actually, when Obama actually chooses to defend himself, his comebacks are a lot more witty and hard-hitting than Clinton's. One major problem I have with Obama's campaign is that they frequently confuse valid and truthful defense with dirty politics. Some of the lowest of the lowest bullshit is coming from the Clinton campaign (the emails about him being a Muslim, his going to the Canadian government about NAFTA, Obama 'acting like Kenn Star', etc.), and Obama's campaign needs to do a lot more to come back.

I like to think that if Lincoln was the best we could do, then we have pretty low standards. It's my contention that Obama would break these standards pretty easily.

Lincoln would have done anything to retain the union, even if it meant enslaving freedmen in the North. He frequently expressed those feelings himself. Whether Lincoln was actually not racist and was genuinely interested in equal rights for racial minorities is unclear and should be left up to historians to debate. All I know is that he could have done a lot more; at least to the equivalent standard of the 'Radical Republicans'.

Again, how can he stop that which he doesn't actually do? I personally haven't seen him call anyone racist because they bring up valid questions about race relations.

But you cannot deny that the bullshit about Obama being a Muslim (many of those email strings were released from the Clinton campaign), is racist. You cannot deny that defining Obama's campaign on the basis of his race does fall under the category of racism. If the claim that Obama's race is the only factor in his success was backed with the concurring evidence then it would be a genuine point; but saying such things on conjecture and bias when they go contrary to the evidence is closely related to racism.

Having an affair is barely what I would consider the mark of a bad President. I think 'him getting us into Vietnam' is misleading but does express a limited amount of truth. Vietnam was mostly LBJ's doing. Whether or not it would have escalated to the extent that LBJ caused had JFK not been assassinated is unclear.

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Political Compass:

Economic Left/Right: -9.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.72

indago

Gadgetory wrote:Yeah, like BOMB BOMB BOMB, BOMB BOMB IRAN...

Now doesn't that just get your juices flowing...

Gadgetory

Let me explain in another way what I am saying. I am not saying I don't think Obama is a good candidate, I am no saying he wouldn't make a good President, I am not saying his campaign doesn't appeal to some. I am saying he has to stop playing the race card everytime something negative is said about him. I am saying there is a growing thought belief amongst white America its OK for a Black American to say racist comments and not OK for white people. I am saying white people don't understand why a black person can say the "n" word and its OK and a white person cannot. It doesn't matter if Obama never uses the word thats irrelevant.

I do prefer Hilary over Obama (because I do think he uses the race card and I do think he is sexist, sorry thats how he appears to me but I'll vote for whatever Dem in the end because I always do but I am not everyone, I am not a swing voter). And I didn't vote for either of them in the primary, my candidate withdrew after I'd sent in my postal vote. If he'd withdrew a few days earlier I'd have voted for Hilary because over the 2 candidates with little experience she has more experience and I know where she stands on issue close to my heart and I've no idea where Obama stands his word isn't good enough he is a politician afterall. And oddly (and this is the opposite of the way the media portrayed it). I liked her eyes welled with tears when a reporter told her she looked nice because her response was honest, I am sick of people putting on a show I want honesty. Obama is a great showman. And because she had been attacked by the media or years about the way she looked and I thought it was a poignant moment. The press jumped on it and started a rather sexist attack on women being overly emotional which frankly disgusted me. It didnt disgust Mr Lets all work together, he agreed with the press which also disgusted me.

So back to Obama and the need to stop calling white people racist. Many white people are sick of it, they are sick of the line of thought that white people are oppressing black people and we are all racist. They think I never owned a slave, they can't see racism is institutionalized. Which isn't Obama's campaign but its very easy to paint him this way when he calls people racists. They'll end up painting him not as a natural progression from MLK but as the new Malcolm X who blames white people for oppressing black people which isn';t his campaign but people don't read what candidates say they read headlines and only sometimes they may read an article. Now they get to read a headline and if they want an article whereby his preacher for the last 20 years has over a period of timed used racial slurs about white people. It doesn't mater Obama repudiates it, its out there and they will continue to paint him like this and the GOP is going to have fun doing it. Many white people are poor working class and or middle class who don't believe they have anything to do with oppressing anyone because they themselves feel oppressed and resent black people blaming them for their lot in life. So when a rich black guy (he is wealthy he paid $1.65 mil for a home) starts calling them racist they get pissed off. Obama had the perfect opportunity when Ferraro said her crap the other day to say you know I am lucky, I am lucky I live in a time where all Americans have worked together so thats its possible that a black man and a woman are the 2 frontrunners for the Democratic Candidancy for the Presidency of the USA..instead we get the negative racist comments.

BTW Obama said we should bomb our enemies he thought that was a viable response. He also voted for tax breaks for oil companies and not to force them to reinvest mprofit into alernative fue forms and voted against withdrawing troops from Iraq. He has to be careful because the little he has done is often in complete opposition to what he is currently saying. People do not read what he says unless they are interested in him, they read headlines.

Don't believe the war in Iraq is as unpopular as polls would have you believe either, the polls up until the primaries started showed Hilary kicking ass and Rudy would be the GOP presidential candidate, very little issue about it according to polls. Here we are with McCain who was about to pull out of the race and the Dems cannot decide.

And lets all stop pretending that he isn't using his race to his advantage and more power to him but their is a limit in the actual appeal

fxashun

Damn.

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nuttyjoe

I have also never denied that there are Blacks who have voted for Obama simply because of race. His victory in Mississippi probably (surely, rather) had many of these such votes.
But I do agree with Katz. Obama is enjoying that advantage, much as Hillary enjoys her advantage at using the White woman voting bloc.
Who exactly has Obama called racist? If I understand the recent news correctly; Obama stated that Ferraro's comments weren't racist; but ridiculous.
If you believe that the candidates should say whatever they wish about race or gender, why don't they? I am unaware of any such restriction other than their fear to do so. So why are Clinton's people afraid? And why hasn't Obama attacked Hillary's gender?
We all know how women are veiwed in the Middle East. They are not respected. Why doesn't Obama push this point across?
Because it makes no point. Just as those who are still trying to push across the Barack Hussein Obama fear are finding out; you will need something more substantial than scaremongering to make your candidate more viable- instead of trying to make the other candidate look bad by scaring America.
This is what I mean by Amewrica being sick of this type of politics. What I'm seeing is that every time Hillary's campaign tries something along these lines; she loses a little more support.And her campaign supporters cry that they should be allowed ! I'm surprised that her people haven't caught onto this yet; it isn't rocket science- America doesn't want to hear this kind of campaign!

Katczinsky

What do you mean it's irrelevant? You sound like a disgruntled hick on stormfront. Why are you surprised when people use the race card when you go on about how the white's have it so unfair?

Tell me something. If Obama is the nominee, would you vote for him in the general election?

So you can't use the race card, but using the sex card is perfectly alright??

You have yet to provide an example of Obama using the race card, all the while consistently using the sex card yourself.

You have yet to provide an example of him 'using the race card'. Just pure conjecture on your part. That if you criticize a black person that 'must' mean that black person uses the race card.

And please, honesty? You have got to be kidding me! The very reason why Obama's campaign is gaining traction even among conservatives is because of his alternative to two-faced politicians like Hillary Clinton and John McCain. At least we know where he stands.

Hillary Clinton has showed an entire taxonomy of different personalities on the campaign trail. She spews straight-out lies about her stances. While she'd have you mislead into believing that she's the alternative to NAFTA, she helped create NAFTA in the first place, and she consistently voted to retain it's provisions throughout her Senate career. Likewise she not only voted for war authorization but consistently voted to keep the Iraq War going. If she's been wrong so many times then why exactly is she the most qualified candidate to 'answer that phone call at 3 am'?? Experience doesn't mean shit if your judgment is impaired. Obama on the other hand was initially opposed to both NAFTA and the Iraq War.

Seriously, do you belong to stormfront? Are you completely ignorant of history? "Malcolm X who blames white people for oppressing black people which isn';t"?? You'd have a very hard time trying to justify your delusion that black people weren't oppressed by white people in this country. The socio-economic structures today with self-reinforcing poverty in the inner-city and poor quality education for African-American districts are vestiges of American history of white racism going all the way back to slavery. You're living in a pipe dream if you think everything was suddenly made better and black people are in their condition because of the quality of their work ethic or some bullshit like that. Racism is indeed institutionalized, and it's not far from reality to say that the ruling class are white and the black are a part of the proletariat.

There's a reason why the public schools in the rich and white New Albany suburb of my home city of Columbus, Ohio looks like a Harvard campus whilst public schools in Columbus are so underfunded that many are literally either laying off teachers or closing schools down all together. If you think a systemic problem with roots in white racism aren't to blame then you're just delusioned. There's just no other way of putting it.

I'm wondering if you're actually interested in why he voted the way he voted or you're just interested in regurgitating campaign rhetoric from Clinton's website. Although, that is one of the many issues I do have with Obama, is that although he was opposed to the war from the start, he did vote to continue funding. But then again my first choice in a presidential candidate was Dennis Kucinich. So I have to work with the best we got, and Clinton, a former Republican leader, corporate sell-out, and former member of Wal-Mart's board of directors could hardly be in the best interests of the working class. If you really think she is, then you are the naive idealist, not the Obama supporters.

I do think this country is still pretty polarized on the war. Though, that probably has to do something with the White House's successful propaganda campaign of the 'surge'.

Again, polling data confirms that in the bigger states such as California, Texas, New York, Florida, and especially Ohio, his race has worked in favor of Hillary. Although he might get the black vote easier, the black vote is still a small minority. People who say that Obama's race factored into their considerations for who they were going to vote for were consistently in favor of Clinton usually 60-40.

The fact that he has gotten this far is a testament to the content of his character, not the color of his skin.

__________________
Political Compass:

Economic Left/Right: -9.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.72

AlicornsPrayer

Kat, you don't mind that I'm kinda idolizing you right now? There's not one thing you've said that I personally don't agree with myself...It's like you were reading my mind and typing my thoughts out to share.

(((((((((HUGZ))))))))) Well said KAT!

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http://www.politicalwrinkles.com/pol...n-contest.html

garysher

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Katczinsky

Correct. This is what the polling data shows. White women are consistently the largest voting bloc and they are Hillary's base.

It would be conjecture upon my part; but regardless of his skin, his message and rhetorical skills resonate above the rest.

You seem to forget that there have been African-American candidates before, and they did terribly.

__________________
Political Compass:

Economic Left/Right: -9.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.72

nuttyjoe

Thank you, Katz. I've been trying to say for some time now that Obama does not dwell on race as his major campaign point. If anyone hasn't been watching or listening; Obama constantly talk about his better judgment-not race.
Many people are trying to lump Obama's candidacy in with the failed efforts of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They could not be further from reality. All Jackson and Sharpton could say was "vote for me because I'm Black". They had no other message.
Since Obama has the good judgment message that shows that he can think clearly, he is able to reach across voting blocs that Jackson and Sharpton could only dream about.
This is why Hillary wants so bad to have the Michigan and Florida results counted as is. She fears that a redo might have (and probably would have) different results.
I agree that these two states must be redone. My suggestion would be to put them both at the end; after Puerto Rico. This would give both candidates ample time for campaigning; and correct the fact that Obama's name was not even on the Michigan ballot. If Hillary is so sure of her dominance in these two states- this shouldn't be a problem.
But I think she realizes that as Obama gets more and more exposure to the voting public to get out his message; she loses more of her support. If these states redo their primaries, Hillary stands to lose more delegates, and risks the still undecided delegates going to Obama.