Defending the Truth

tyreay · 03-16-2008, 08:33 AM

Looking at the whole picture, including the count of electoral votes, I believe Obama will get the Democratic Nomination. I also think he'll have a very good chance of beating McCain out for president. Just my opinion. Hope everyone has a great day.

nuttyjoe · 03-16-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyreay

Looking at the whole picture, including the count of electoral votes, I believe Obama will get the Democratic Nomination. I also think he'll have a very good chance of beating McCain out for president. Just my opinion. Hope everyone has a great day.

Well, hello; Ty! Where have you been for so long? Everything going okay?This thread seems to be a good one. Everyone has their own opinion; but ultimately we'll have to wait and see what the Democratic picture turns out to be before this thread topic is decided.

highway80west · 03-16-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyreay

Looking at the whole picture, including the count of electoral votes, I believe Obama will get the Democratic Nomination. I also think he'll have a very good chance of beating McCain out for president. Just my opinion. Hope everyone has a great day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuttyjoe

Well, hello; Ty! Where have you been for so long? Everything going okay?This thread seems to be a good one. Everyone has their own opinion; but ultimately we'll have to wait and see what the Democratic picture turns out to be before this thread topic is decided.

Obama picked up nine more delegates when they belonged to John Edwards'. I think he has it sewed up.

sarasara · 03-17-2008, 04:52 AM

The Dumbocrats have nothing to offer but the opportunity for Americans; tired of war and economic decline, to bury their heads heads in the sand and shout "Yes we CAN!"

McCain is the only grown-up in the election, he is the only Republican who has the guts to stand by the policy and complete the difficult course that the US had to set out on after 9/11 of altering the structure of the middle east to make it less of a long term threat.

Obama and Clinton have nothing to offer but another Vietnam in Iraq and Obama and Clinton's promises to return there again after they have thrown away all our efforts, blood, treasure and sacrifices.

How much do you think a gradual troop build-up in Kuwait to re-invade Iraq will cost? How pathetic it will be to see Obama or Clinton having to cap in hand to the Chinese to borrow the money?

Obama lied about NAFTA and the war, he lied that he could unite America while his wife was saying she was not proud of America and his pastor was saying God DAMN America!" How can he unite both sides of the isle when he is part of the left-liberals who hate America brigade? He may be a good man but he is naive, inexperienced and unpatriotic.

McCain has worked even with Ted Kennedy and is a personal friend of Joe Liberman. He can unite everyone except the far-left and the far-right....and they always lose anyway!

nuttyjoe · 03-17-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarasara

The Dumbocrats have nothing to offer but the opportunity for Americans; tired of war and economic decline, to bury their heads heads in the sand and shout "Yes we CAN!"

McCain is the only grown-up in the election, he is the only Republican who has the guts to stand by the policy and complete the difficult course that the US had to set out on after 9/11 of altering the structure of the middle east to make it less of a long term threat.

Obama and Clinton have nothing to offer but another Vietnam in Iraq and Obama and Clinton's promises to return there again after they have thrown away all our efforts, blood, treasure and sacrifices.

How much do you think a gradual troop build-up in Kuwait to re-invade Iraq will cost? How pathetic it will be to see Obama or Clinton having to cap in hand to the Chinese to borrow the money?

Obama lied about NAFTA and the war, he lied that he could unite America while his wife was saying she was not proud of America and his pastor was saying God DAMN America!" How can he unite both sides of the isle when he is part of the left-liberals who hate America brigade? He may be a good man but he is naive, inexperienced and unpatriotic.

McCain has worked even with Ted Kennedy and is a personal friend of Joe Liberman. He can unite everyone except the far-left and the far-right....and they always lose anyway!

All that is worth nothing to the Americans whom see the economy in the worst mess since the Depression, gas at an all-time high in cost; an a Republican in office. Simply put, McCain is just an extension of those very problems. Your patriotism attack on Obama doesn't say two important things: 1): He has never said anything unpatriotic; and 2): You can't buy groceries and pay your bills with patriotism. It's commendable, but you can hang ten thousand American flags from your home, but can your family eat them? Will your mortgage company take them as a monthly payment on your home?Can you take them to the gas station to exchange for gasoline?Will those flags bring home a paycheck when you find out that you've lost your job because of outsourcing or downsizing? These are the simple questions that America is asking itself. Nobody questions McCain's patriotism, because that's not what the average American worries about each and every day.
As far as what his wife said, that was taken completely out of context to what she really meant. But that is part of election politics: watch your mouth- and she hopefully has learned to choose her words better.
The Reverend Jeremiah Wright speaks for only himself. Obama has seperated himself from this man. Yes, he presided at the Obama wedding; but again, these words did not come from Obama. If we were to attach them to Obama, wouldn't we also be correct to attach McCain to the words of John Hagee, who speaks of America using a nuclear attack in the Middle East?

fxashun · 03-17-2008, 07:23 AM

I'm sorry dude. But that guy has VERY close ties to Obama. He's gonna have a hell of a time "separating" himself from Wright once the media starts their serious spear Obama campaign.

Wright has been Obama's pastor for 20 years, presided at his wedding and Baptised his kids. When you combine the words of that pastor with the mission statement of his church, I'm sorry, you are gonna lose a few white folk. He might win the nomination, but the election itself just became a bit more interesting. Because I'm sure this is just a sampling of what's coming after the nomination is secured.

YouTube - Hillary ain't never been called a...

YouTube - Barack Obama Pastor Jeremiah Wright...

So I guess I'm supposed to believe these are isolated sermons in the last 20 years? My ass. ike I said before, combined with the mission statement, these sermons don't paint this church or its members in a very inclusive light.

Good luck Obama.

AlicornsPrayer · 03-17-2008, 07:41 AM

Interesting conversation here...Especially about whether or not Wright/Obama are patriotic Americans because of Wright's words?

Found this article yesterday which was an interesting read, if I say so myself...Seems that not only has another said worse but that rather then be obstracized and called 'un-American', they were embraced for calling a war on the American goverment? LOL!

Frank Schaeffer: Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero - Politics on The Huffington Post

Quote:

When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.

Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits. They tell us that America is complicit in the "murder of the unborn," has become "Sodom" by coddling gays, and that our public schools are sinful places full of evolutionists and sex educators hell-bent on corrupting children. They say, as my dad often did, that we are, "under the judgment of God." They call America evil and warn of immanent destruction. By comparison Obama's minister's shouted "controversial" comments were mild. All he said was that God should damn America for our racism and violence and that no one had ever used the N-word about Hillary Clinton.

Dad and I were amongst the founders of the Religious right. In the 1970s and 1980s, while Dad and I crisscrossed America denouncing our nation's sins instead of getting in trouble we became darlings of the Republican Party. (This was while I was my father's sidekick before I dropped out of the evangelical movement altogether.) We were rewarded for our "stand" by people such as Congressman Jack Kemp, the Fords, Reagan and the Bush family. The top Republican leadership depended on preachers and agitators like us to energize their rank and file. No one called us un-American.

Consider a few passages from my father's immensely influential America-bashing book A Christian Manifesto. It sailed under the radar of the major media who, back when it was published in 1980, were not paying particular attention to best-selling religious books. Nevertheless it sold more than a million copies.

Here's Dad writing in his chapter on civil disobedience:
If there is a legitimate reason for the use of force [against the US government]... then at a certain point force is justifiable.

And this:
In the United States the materialistic, humanistic world view is being taught exclusively in most state schools... There is an obvious parallel between this and the situation in Russia [the USSR]. And we really must not be blind to the fact that indeed in the public schools in the United States all religious influence is as forcibly forbidden as in the Soviet Union....

Then this:
There does come a time when force, even physical force, is appropriate... A true Christian in Hitler's Germany and in the occupied countries should have defied the false and counterfeit state. This brings us to a current issue that is crucial for the future of the church in the United States, the issue of abortion... It is time we consciously realize that when any office commands what is contrary to God's law it abrogates it's authority. And our loyalty to the God who gave this law then requires that we make the appropriate response in that situation...

Was any conservative political leader associated with Dad running for cover? Far from it. Dad was a frequent guest of the Kemps, had lunch with the Fords, stayed in the White House as their guest, he met with Reagan, helped Dr. C. Everett Koop become Surgeon General. (I went on the 700 Club several times to generate support for Koop).

Dad became a hero to the evangelical community and a leading political instigator. When Dad died in 1984 everyone from Reagan to Kemp to Billy Graham lamented his passing publicly as the loss of a great American. Not one Republican leader was ever asked to denounce my dad or distanced himself from Dad's statements.

Take Dad's words and put them in the mouth of Obama's preacher (or in the mouth of any black American preacher) and people would be accusing that preacher of treason. Yet when we of the white Religious Right denounced America white conservative Americans and top political leaders, called our words "godly" and "prophetic" and a "call to repentance."

We Republican agitators of the mid 1970s to the late 1980s were genuinely anti-American in the same spirit that later Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson (both followers of my father) were anti-American when they said God had removed his blessing from America on 9/11, because America accepted gays. Falwell and Robertson recanted but we never did.

My dad's books denouncing America and comparing the USA to Hitler are still best sellers in the "respectable" evangelical community and he's still hailed as a prophet by many Republican leaders. When Mike Huckabee was recently asked by Katie Couric to name one book he'd take with him to a desert island, besides the Bible, he named Dad's Whatever Happened to the Human Race? a book where Dad also compared America to Hitler's Germany.

The hypocrisy of the right denouncing Obama, because of his minister's words, is staggering. They are the same people who argue for the right to "bear arms" as "insurance" to limit government power. They are the same people that (in the early 1980s roared and cheered when I called down damnation on America as "fallen away from God" at their national meetings where I was keynote speaker, including the annual meeting of the ultraconservative Southern Baptist convention, and the religious broadcasters that I addressed.

Today we have a marriage of convenience between the right wing fundamentalists who hate Obama, and the "progressive" Clintons who are playing the race card through their own smear machine. As Jane Smiley writes in the Huffington Post "[The Clinton's] are, indeed, now part of the 'vast right wing conspiracy.' (Jane Smiley: I'm Already Against the Next War - Politics on The Huffington Post )

Both the far right Republicans and the stop-at-nothing Clintons are using the "scandal" of Obama's preacher to undermine the first black American candidate with a serious shot at the presidency. Funny thing is, the racist Clinton/Far Right smear machine proves that Obama's minister had a valid point. There is plenty to yell about these days.

Frank Schaeffer is a writer and author of "CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back

fxashun · 03-17-2008, 07:53 AM

It seems the climate has "changed" then huh? I know a certain contengent here is always rattling on about "change", but I guess it's only "change" that agrees with their POV that they are happy with. I seriously doubt that a black man attending a church with seriously questionable racist overtones would have a snowballs chance in hell getting elected president in the past. At least we have changed to where he "might" still be electable. But IMHO, with this revelation and the hammering that it's gonna get in the coming weeks, there's not enough black folk to pull him through in the general election. It's gonna be a another Clinton/Obama situation. Do you hate the republicans enough to vote for Obama?

nuttyjoe · 03-17-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer

Interesting conversation here...Especially about whether or not Wright/Obama are patriotic Americans because of Wright's words?

Found this article yesterday which was an interesting read, if I say so myself...Seems that not only has another said worse but that rather then be obstracized and called 'un-American', they were embraced for calling a war on the American goverment? LOL!

Frank Schaeffer: Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero - Politics on The Huffington Post

Thank you, Ali. Seems that Mr. Wright isn't the only unpatriotic person around. I don't pretend to measure a candidate's patriotism as qualification for office. That's because I believe the media can twist anything into anything. But as I've said I do believe Americans can measure the money (and lack of it) in their pockets. I believe they see a problem that a few days ago, the Fed has to bail out one of the largest investment banks on the planet: Bear Stearns. I believe Americans will combine this; along with the cost of our misadventure in Iraq, and seek to place blame for this. And that blame won't be with Jeremiah Wright.
What he said was nothing short of disgusting; but again: it is going to be just a little hard to dwell on him when you just paid $75.00 to fill your gas tank in order to come back home to find a foreclosure notice on your door. And you have a small problem trying to negotiate a repayment plan because you just lost your job also! Try telling the bank or mortgage company that it's all Reverend Wright's fault. See just how far that gets you!

AlicornsPrayer · 03-17-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxashun

It seems the climate has "changed" then huh? I know a certain contengent here is always rattling on about "change", but I guess it's only "change" that agrees with their POV that they are happy with. I seriously doubt that a black man attending a church with seriously questionable racist overtones would have a snowballs chance in hell getting elected president int he past. At least we have changed to where he "might" still be electable. But IMHO, with this revelation and the hammering that it's gonna get in the coming weeks, there's not enough black folk to pull him through in the general election. It's gonna be a another Clinton/Obama situation. Do you hate the republicans enough to vote for Obama?

ROTFLMAOL!!!

Actually, from what that article showed was that nothing has changed, just who is/isn't allowed to say those things or even close to what was said in the past.

Secondly...Hate republicans? You really need to stop trying to put words/actions onto other's shoulders. Please point to where I said anything about hating Republicans?

You can't, cause I haven't. But that's your weak attempt I can safely assume at trying to say I'm a Liberal and not a Conservative?

Well, you're only half right...I'm not a Conservative. But I'm also not a Liberal, nor do I support one party over the other.

I'm a moderate and I vote like a moderate...

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