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06-13-2008, 03:02 PM
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#31 (permalink)
| | Senator
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Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos  So in your mind the "Mahometan and the Hindoo" are Christian or Jewish denominations? | These are the thoughts of Jefferson and not that of the American population. The population of America was 99.999999999999% Christian and there was a lot of division within the differing denominations. To fully understand the mindset of the American people of that time you need to learn about the Great Awakening, a religious movement that took place in American colonies... Please take time to read this face page at the link so you can get a grasp on the mindset.
Clearly America and its government was established on the values of Judeo-Christian belief. The colonies had established "common law" which the states and the Federal Government adopted, this common law was not the common law of the King of England but that of the colonies and was based on their values. The government was truly established to be secular in relation to religion with acknowledgement that it would function based on the Judeo-Christian values the people stood for. To say the government was established secular to rule a secular people uncaring of Christianity is just silly. The people were all very religious and with very different points of view towards religion and that is why it was essential that no one denomination have the light of day within the government or a religious war would begin.
Now I'm not a bible thumper, I'm secular and I get it ... if you can't read this and get it something is wrong with this picture.
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06-13-2008, 03:09 PM
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#32 (permalink)
|  mouth almighty
Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Jersey
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Country:  Points: 55,420, Level: 100 | Level up: 0%, 0 Points needed | | They never intended for America to be associated exclusively with one religion. Believing in God does not make one ascribe to Judeo-Christian philosophy. They were mostly Deists, as tadpole said. They wouldn't agree to religion gaining a political foothold in America. | |
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06-13-2008, 03:15 PM
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#33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by waitingtables They never intended for America to be associated exclusively with one religion. Believing in God does not make one ascribe to Judeo-Christian philosophy. They were mostly Deists, as tadpole said. They wouldn't agree to religion gaining a political foothold in America. | The original pilgrims moved here because they were Christian elitists and didn't want to have to associate with non-Christians.
They took to heart the Bible verse about being "in the world but not of the world".
In any case why do so many Americans take the binary position that there has to be either complete religious freedom and the only alternative is a theocracy??
Most countries on the planet exist quite happily with complete religious freedom AND a state religion, or a huge predominance of a single religion.
Why is America so insecure about its background?
Why not admit that 75%+ of Americans are Christians (practising or otherwise)?
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06-13-2008, 03:23 PM
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#34 (permalink)
| | Senator
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Originally Posted by waitingtables They never intended for America to be associated exclusively with one religion. Believing in God does not make one ascribe to Judeo-Christian philosophy. They were mostly Deists, as tadpole said. They wouldn't agree to religion gaining a political foothold in America. | Who is "they"? Are you speaking about the founders or the American people?
If an atheist, Muslim, Deist or agnostic ran for office today would he/she be elected? If a Deist ran for president at the founding of our nation would the feeling be different?
What makes you think that people that were described in the link I provided on the Great Awakening would vote for someone that thought entirely differently than they did? Google the Great Awakening and read about it on different links... the religious movement that started the religious demand for an end of slavery. Damn, even Rev. Wright even agrees with that! | |
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06-13-2008, 04:12 PM
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#35 (permalink)
| | mouth almighty
Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Jersey
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Country: Points: 55,420, Level: 100 | Level up: 0%, 0 Points needed | | There is no problem with religion that is active in social justice. The puritans were not our founding fathers, gary. And the question about running for office today has no relevance to whether or not this is a strictly Christian country. And you expect me to read your great awakening, but have you checked into the fact that the founders were mostly Deists? Do you know what Deists are? | |
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06-13-2008, 05:23 PM
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#36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by waitingtables There is no problem with religion that is active in social justice. The puritans were not our founding fathers, gary.
Look what your Founding Fathers said:
John Adams:
We have no government armed in power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.
George Washington:
As commander in chief he wrote to the army in 1778:
"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."
Patrick Henry:
"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."
And the question about running for office today has no relevance to whether or not this is a strictly Christian country. And you expect me to read your great awakening, but have you checked into the fact that the founders were mostly Deists? Do you know what Deists are? | Deists are insecure Christians!
Why else would someone say they're a Deist and stop short of being a Christian?
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06-13-2008, 06:22 PM
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#37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by waitingtables There is no problem with religion that is active in social justice. The puritans were not our founding fathers, gary. | Who is gary? OK how many founders were Deists? Jefferson and John Looke were of the same religious philosophy background that you like to label as Deists. Looke was a religious scholar trained in the finest religious universities Europe had to offer. Looke and the former Governor of NC developed the standards for the Bill of Rights and the standards of the three branches of government. To understand Looke and his relation to religion or Deist you have to understand they are two different things... in other words he could have been a Catholic and a Deist at the same time. The world that surrounded him was controlled by King and Church, these factors controlled man's freedom so he used Nature's God to define the rights to property and the rights of man from a neutral standpoint. See John Locke Foundation | John Locke: His American and Carolinian Legacy
Ok, here comes Jefferson, a scholar that read of Looke and lived through the Declaration of the Rights of Man - 1789 while in France during the American Revolution. The Avalon Project : Declaration of the Rights of Man - 1789 This action in France was followed by The Reign of Terror The Reign of Terror and the Churches all during the age of enlightenment. Quote: |
And the question about running for office today has no relevance to whether or not this is a strictly Christian country. And you expect me to read your great awakening, but have you checked into the fact that the founders were mostly Deists? Do you know what Deists are?
| I conclude Jefferson does adopt Looke's standards of government and forms it around the Nature's God and the Rights of Man that removed power from a central church and King. But that doesn't make him a Deist. He saw the values of Looke's governmental views of three branches along with his views on the rights of man and the rights to property. You have to keep in mind that rights to property was something very new in that age for the common man.
Jefferson was seen by other founders in a very questionable way because of his close affiliation with France as he lived in France throughout the Revolutionary War on an assignment similar as Secretary of State. Some of the founders thought he had made a deal with France outside of his authority that could give the nation to French control.
Jefferson was not the only person to adopt Looke's governmental standards, as I mentioned earlier NC had adopted these standards as Looke visited with the governor before Jefferson was born. Several of the states had Bills of Rights but none of the states were led by Deists. | |
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06-13-2008, 09:38 PM
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#38 (permalink)
| | mouth almighty
Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Jersey
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Country: Points: 55,420, Level: 100 | Level up: 0%, 0 Points needed | | And the great thing about all those that you mentioned was their ability to seperate their faith from political chicanery, that does not make them insecure Christians, if anything it shows that they were quite secure in their beliefs. They didn't have to make it the public spectacle that they do today. | |
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06-13-2008, 11:34 PM
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#39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher The original pilgrims moved here because they were Christian elitists and didn't want to have to associate with non-Christians.
They took to heart the Bible verse about being "in the world but not of the world".
In any case why do so many Americans take the binary position that there has to be either complete religious freedom and the only alternative is a theocracy??
Most countries on the planet exist quite happily with complete religious freedom AND a state religion, or a huge predominance of a single religion.
Why is America so insecure about its background?
Why not admit that 75%+ of Americans are Christians (practising or otherwise)?
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06-14-2008, 12:37 AM
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#40 (permalink)
| | Congressional Representative
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Originally Posted by garysher Deists are insecure Christians!
Why else would someone say they're a Deist and stop short of being a Christian?
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