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Old 09-16-2005, 07:06 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Old 09-16-2005, 07:22 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Re: Voter Fauid became commonplace
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Originally Posted by hevusa
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Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy
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Originally Posted by hevusa
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Originally Posted by Nebraskaboy
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Originally Posted by hevusa
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Originally Posted by bullwinkle
voiter fauid commonplace many years ago. Voter fraud is used by both parties in all elections. Dead people have been voting for years, and so have peoples pets, illegal aliens, you name a way to fradulently vote, and it is being done everywhere.

There is no cure for it, only a battle against it. Unfortunately to many people on both sides are against a large part of the battle, which is to require valid ID when voting.
Which is also a great argument to implement more parties than just two.
And how do you plan to go about that?

People are so stuck between Liberal and Conservative, I could never see this happening.

The way to implement more parties is at the bottom of every one of my posts
But how will that help, maybe you should explain this to me. It said to rank the politicians but arent the Liberals going to rank the Liberals high and the Republicans going to rank the Republicans high? I probably need you to explain this to me.

Let me make a hypothetical scenario so you can have some insight into how IRV can promote more than two parties.

Let's say Oscar the grouch, Ms. Piggy and Kermit were running for office. Oscar is a republican canidate , Ms. Piggy democrat and Kermit is with the green party that care for the enviroment very much.

Now Oscar is an evil asshole who you really don't want to see in office but your favorite canidate Kermit, who stands for what you believe in, doesn't have as much support as Oscar's main competition Ms. Piggy. In essence a vote for your favorite canidate is giving evil Oscar that much more of a chance to get in office. This is the so called spoiler vote syndrome.

IRV would allow you to rank Kermit 1st, Ms. Piggy 2nd, and Oscar 3rd. If Kermit doesn't get enough of the vote your vote counts towards Ms. Piggy and does not help Oscar. This would promote voting for what you believe in and not what you are afraid of or against someone. It would level the playing field for 3rd parties and unlock the centralized power the democrats and republicans currently enjoy.
Ok, I see now, that makes perfect sense.

I guess that seems like a logical solution..
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You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."

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Old 09-17-2005, 01:52 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Roughly put, we are looking at a three-way split in politics
One-third Democrat, one-third Republican and one-third 'other'. Who speaks for the one-third 'other'? Granted, these people are probably all over the political spectrum, but most of these people likely fall into a category of being politically independent-minded. I foresee the percentage of undecided voters growing in the future, as Republicans continue to ignore their conservative base and continue to slowly morph into a "Democrat-lite" political institution, and the Democrats continue to gravitate toward being the party of "freaks and geeks". Much of that growing sector of disillusioned voters will come from Christians. Statistics are often thrown around touting there are 40 million voting-age Christians in America, and that they make up the largest voting block. If a third party could round up most, or all, of these voters, pressure could be put on establishment "politics as usual".

Who will speak for the 33% (and growing) of voters that do not align with one of the 'big two' political parties? I admit that personally the Libertarian party tends to go too much to the Left on social issues for me. At times I make the knee-jerk comment that it is the 'Legalize Pot Party' (and I admit this isn't a totally fair assessment). There are other parties, such as the American Party and Constitution Party, which clearly embrace traditional constitutional government as the desired state of things. There are a number of other political parties of various sizes, some only covering specific regions. None of these parties on its own has been able to make any serious threat to the establishment parties.

As for me, I can no longer put politics over principal. No longer will I hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I'll be looking for someone outside of the 'big two' to vote for who truly believes in what the Founders intended for us, their posterity. In local, state and Congressional elections, I'll just have to wait and see who runs. For president in 2004, I'm leaning towards the Constitution Party. They don't even have a candidate yet, but their platform reflects my views better than any other I've seen. The Constitution Party would be a natural home for any Christian, and the odds are good that their candidate won't be a Washington insider. We've had enough of those.
Old 09-17-2005, 01:57 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Re: Roughly put, we are looking at a three-way split in poli
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As for me, I can no longer put politics over principal. No longer will I hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I'll be looking for someone outside of the 'big two' to vote for who truly believes in what the Founders intended for us, their posterity.

That is great. Instant Runoff Voting would allow you to do this without "wasting your vote". Please support it.
--- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope ---

There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence.
Old 09-17-2005, 02:21 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Re: Roughly put, we are looking at a three-way split in poli
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Originally Posted by bullwinkle
As for me, I can no longer put politics over principal. No longer will I hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I'll be looking for someone outside of the 'big two' to vote for who truly believes in what the Founders intended for us, their posterity.

That is great. Instant Runoff Voting would allow you to do this without "wasting your vote". Please support it.
only trouble with that is that the rep-dems have all the money and power, and they crush anyone in there way
Old 09-17-2005, 02:23 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Re: Roughly put, we are looking at a three-way split in poli
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Originally Posted by bullwinkle
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Originally Posted by hevusa
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullwinkle
As for me, I can no longer put politics over principal. No longer will I hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I'll be looking for someone outside of the 'big two' to vote for who truly believes in what the Founders intended for us, their posterity.

That is great. Instant Runoff Voting would allow you to do this without "wasting your vote". Please support it.
only trouble with that is that the rep-dems have all the money and power, and they crush anyone in there way
IRV puts an end to that.
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Old 09-19-2005, 09:28 PM   #67 (permalink)
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The current winner take all system does not prevent third party candidates from succeeding. What prevents them from succeeding is the narrow view of topics. Once again, if a thrid party candidate would come along whose platform appealed to the masses, they would get elected (Jesse Ventura in Minnesota). However, as long as the Green Party continues to campaign solely on the environment what chance have they to win, and if someone is willing to vote for them because they believe in that platform they should. However, if they believe that there are other issues that are just as important, then they should look to other candidates. IRV will only cause more problems to an already confusing situation. The debacle that was the Florida election in 2000 is a prime example of that. People only had to vote for one candidate and it seems as if many couldn't do that correctly.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-
Old 09-19-2005, 09:39 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The current winner take all system does not prevent third party candidates from succeeding. What prevents them from succeeding is the narrow view of topics. Once again, if a thrid party candidate would come along whose platform appealed to the masses, they would get elected (Jesse Ventura in Minnesota). However, as long as the Green Party continues to campaign solely on the environment what chance have they to win, and if someone is willing to vote for them because they believe in that platform they should. However, if they believe that there are other issues that are just as important, then they should look to other candidates. IRV will only cause more problems to an already confusing situation. The debacle that was the Florida election in 2000 is a prime example of that. People only had to vote for one candidate and it seems as if many couldn't do that correctly.

dmk
The bullshit in your post is too thick to cut.

What prevents third parties from competition is the strangle hold the reps and dems have over the process and media. IRV would not cause more problems it would create the chance for a better democracy since the process is much more fair than our current one. It is more fair for the voters and 3rd parties by eliminating the spolier vote syndrome allowing people to vote about what issues are important to them versus who they don't want to see in office.
--- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope ---

There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence.
Old 09-20-2005, 11:42 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski
The current winner take all system does not prevent third party candidates from succeeding. What prevents them from succeeding is the narrow view of topics. Once again, if a thrid party candidate would come along whose platform appealed to the masses, they would get elected (Jesse Ventura in Minnesota). However, as long as the Green Party continues to campaign solely on the environment what chance have they to win, and if someone is willing to vote for them because they believe in that platform they should. However, if they believe that there are other issues that are just as important, then they should look to other candidates. IRV will only cause more problems to an already confusing situation. The debacle that was the Florida election in 2000 is a prime example of that. People only had to vote for one candidate and it seems as if many couldn't do that correctly.

dmk
The bullshit in your post is too thick to cut.

What prevents third parties from competition is the strangle hold the reps and dems have over the process and media. IRV would not cause more problems it would create the chance for a better democracy since the process is much more fair than our current one. It is more fair for the voters and 3rd parties by eliminating the spolier vote syndrome allowing people to vote about what issues are important to them versus who they don't want to see in office.
He must have brown eyes...
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Old 09-20-2005, 07:37 PM   #70 (permalink)
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People are entitled to a vote, one voice - one vote, this whole notion of oh I will vote for Candidate C but if he doesn't get enough votes then my votes should go to is a bunch of crock. It does not make the system better. As far as the spoiler vote goes, as long as a candidate gets on the ballot, people should have the right to vote for them. No one was complaining in 1992 when Perot took votes from Bush 41, but woe is me the outcry because Gore lost votes because of Nader or Buchanan or whoever.

One voice, one vote. The system has worked for 200 plus years we don't need to change it. Again the third party candidates need to change, come up with ideas, raise money, get your name and voice out there. Everyone thought that the election finance reform would save the election cycles, now we see that all they do is protect the incumbents. Perhaps it is time we did away with all election finance. Anyone wanting to be a candidate should have access to commercials on television and radio without being charged for them, and should have access to the post office for mailings at no cost. Do away with the need for money in an election and more candidates would become viable.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-
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