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Old 03-06-2007, 06:45 AM   #11 (permalink)
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'Divine mission' driving Iran's new leader


By Anton La Guardia

Last Updated: 12:33am GMT 15/01/2006





As Iran rushes towards confrontation with the world over its nuclear programme, the question uppermost in the mind of western leaders is "What is moving its President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to such recklessness?"
Political analysts point to the fact that Iran feels strong because of high oil prices, while America has been weakened by the insurgency in Iraq.
President Mahmoud AhmadinejadBut listen carefully to the utterances of Mr Ahmadinejad - recently described by President George W Bush as an "odd man" - and there is another dimension, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission.
In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.
When an aircraft crashed in Teheran last month, killing 108 people, Mr Ahmadinejad promised an investigation. But he also thanked the dead, saying: "What is important is that they have shown the way to martyrdom which we must follow."
The most remarkable aspect of Mr Ahmadinejad's piety is his devotion to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president's belief that his government must prepare the country for his return.



One of the first acts of Mr Ahmadinejad's government was to donate about £10 million to the Jamkaran mosque, a popular pilgrimage site where the pious come to drop messages to the Hidden Imam into a holy well.
All streams of Islam believe in a divine saviour, known as the Mahdi, who will appear at the End of Days. A common rumour - denied by the government but widely believed - is that Mr Ahmadinejad and his cabinet have signed a "contract" pledging themselves to work for the return of the Mahdi and sent it to Jamkaran.
Iran's dominant "Twelver" sect believes this will be Mohammed ibn Hasan, regarded as the 12th Imam, or righteous descendant of the Prophet Mohammad.
He is said to have gone into "occlusion" in the ninth century, at the age of five. His return will be preceded by cosmic chaos, war and bloodshed. After a cataclysmic confrontation with evil and darkness, the Mahdi will lead the world to an era of universal peace.
This is similar to the Christian vision of the Apocalypse. Indeed, the Hidden Imam is expected to return in the company of Jesus.
Mr Ahmadinejad appears to believe that these events are close at hand and that ordinary mortals can influence the divine timetable.
The prospect of such a man obtaining nuclear weapons is worrying. The unspoken question is this: is Mr Ahmadinejad now tempting a clash with the West because he feels safe in the belief of the imminent return of the Hidden Imam? Worse, might he be trying to provoke chaos in the hope of hastening his reappearance?
The 49-year-old Mr Ahmadinejad, a former top engineering student, member of the Revolutionary Guards and mayor of Teheran, overturned Iranian politics after unexpectedly winning last June's presidential elections.
The main rift is no longer between "reformists" and "hardliners", but between the clerical establishment and Mr Ahmadinejad's brand of revolutionary populism and superstition.
Its most remarkable manifestation came with Mr Ahmadinejad's international debut, his speech to the United Nations.
World leaders had expected a conciliatory proposal to defuse the nuclear crisis after Teheran had restarted another part of its nuclear programme in August.
Instead, they heard the president speak in apocalyptic terms of Iran struggling against an evil West that sought to promote "state terrorism", impose "the logic of the dark ages" and divide the world into "light and dark countries".
The speech ended with the messianic appeal to God to "hasten the emergence of your last repository, the Promised One, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace".
In a video distributed by an Iranian web site in November, Mr Ahmadinejad described how one of his Iranian colleagues had claimed to have seen a glow of light around the president as he began his speech to the UN.
"I felt it myself too," Mr Ahmadinejad recounts. "I felt that all of a sudden the atmosphere changed there. And for 27-28 minutes all the leaders did not blink…It's not an exaggeration, because I was looking.
"They were astonished, as if a hand held them there and made them sit. It had opened their eyes and ears for the message of the Islamic Republic."
Western officials said the real reason for any open-eyed stares from delegates was that "they couldn't believe what they were hearing from Ahmadinejad".
Their sneaking suspicion is that Iran's president actually relishes a clash with the West in the conviction that it would rekindle the spirit of the Islamic revolution and - who knows - speed up the arrival of the Hidden Imam.
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:40 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
There is no "restraint" in Israel's actions AT ALL.Of course there is restriant. Other wise PA wouldnt even exist. You have to put things in perspective. The palestinians hav no weapons, no economy, no defese system, NOTHING. That was the choice of the people to support terrorist organisations, leading all the way back to YA.I realize that suicide bombing etc is a cruel and vile method or warfare, but how can you possibly say that it is any less cruel than the helicopter attacks, the bulldozing of civilian housing and the DAILY killing of innocent palestinians.
The attacks from Israel are a direct responce to terror, carried out on there land.
As the situation is, the palestinian people have only two choices. Shut up and take everything Israel gives them, OR fight back with the ONLY WEAPONS AVAILABLE TO THEM. You seem to demonize the palestinians simply because their weapons are SEEM more horrific. Yet more innocent palestinians die at the hands of Israelis than vice versa. How can you claim that Israeli kililng is less cruel simply because they have better equipment.
There is one more choice you forgot to mention. They could also Recognize Israel, and help them to disarm terrorist that undermind peace. If that were to happen Israel will give the west bank, and the 2 could live side by side in peace.
First of all i find it AWFUL that you are under some grave misconception that the Palestinians should grovel in gratitude for Israel's graciousness in getting out of Gaza. It is this attitude that not only reduces the palestinians to the level of animals, it is in fact this attitude that prevents peace from coming about. The paklestinians do not have to be thankful for ANYTHING.
I never said they should grovel to anyone. Im saying that Israel held out its hand in a move tward peace, Up rooted thousands of its own civilians,and instead of palistine embracing it, they let every terrorist org in the region set up camp to make war with Israel.
PA should consider themselves LUCKY? So you honestly think that it is an act of mercy to not destroy this nation? How incredibly arrogant to think so. You make it sound like the nation of Palestine has no right to exist. When all a country does is support terror, you do the math. I cannot understand why there is outrage at the fact that the palestinians are angry and they are fighting back. Lets just pretend that the US was annexed by the canadians. Would you not fight back tooth and nail to get them the hell out. Well this is how Israel is to Palestine. As far as the palestinians are concerned they were LIVING THERE when some outsiders happened by and devided that THEY owned the placve. After which they proceeded to kick out and lock down those who were already living there.
Mark Twain visited the land of Palistine a few years before Israel set up camp. He called it the most barren, god forsaken piece of land he's ever seen. There wasnt anyone there.
Well again that is just as rhetorical a statement from Israel as it is from Palestine. Israel has yet to stop the illegal expansion into Palestinian land. In fact Olmert just inaugurated a NEW settlement on Palestinian land. I mean come on dude. What end is being held up. They just CLAIM they will once the palestinians stop. Well the palestinians calim THEY will when the Israelis stop THEIR tresspass.
Israel has said its willing to give up alot of land, if Palistine would only recognize them. Without that, why would they stop doing anything.
Well he certainly SHOULD be taken seriously and be BROUGHT TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE (as he has suggested MANY TIMES). But that requires that the US stop demanding PRE-REQUISITES. How can any government realistically expect to negotiate, when they wish capitulation PRIOR TO TALKS.
See, Iran signed a little thing we like to call the nuclear treaty. The demands the US has put on Iran to come to the table, do not go beyond that. If they didnt mean it, why did they sign it? Iran has put its self in this mess, cause thats exactly what they WANT to happen.
It seems we disagree with HOW to fight terrorism. Israeli actions INCREASE the motivation for terrorism. It INcreases the frustration in the youth to a level where they blow themselves up. It INcreases the number of people who hate Israel. I NEVER said fight terrorism. But change the method of fighting it. The current strategy is NOT WORKING. As the more powerful party in this debacle the onus is on ISRAEL to alter their method of engagement. Palestine is left with no choice other than capitulation.. and how can you expect a nation to capitulate? I mean the US would never do so.
Considering the insane amount of terroist plots Israel has stopped, its pretty hard to say it isnt working. BTW in many folks eyes, the only way Israel wont be terrorised anymore, is by no longer existing.
Absolutely not. More nations are willing to accept Israel NOW than EVER BEFORE simply because violence int he ME is such a huge problem now that the existence of Israel is certainly the LESSER of two evils. That is why more muslim nations have engaged in talks with Israel. Iran and Syria will follow, but not as long as there is a lockdown on negotiations with them. How can they accept a nation when nobody wants to talk to them.
Some nations recognise Israel in the ME. But the ones who dont, are aquiring nuclear weapons, and other weapons of MD. What does Israel have to negotiate with Iran about? Israel has nothing to do with Iran. What could they possibly have to talk about? Further more, why should they be expected to talk with people who cant even understand there existance? People who denie the holocaust, while there are still thousands of Jews with numbers written on there hands?
The US of A has 10,000 registered nuclear warheads. There is NO WAY IN HELL that the US would allow independent inspections of US nuclear facilities. It has never happened nor will the US EVER ALLOW IT. Because apparently the US has the right to own nukes whereas nobody else does. How's that for global equality?
Again, the United States is in FULL compliance with the nuclear treaty. If you have no source that says other wise, stop saying other wise.
Ever heard of MAD ( Mutually Assured Destruction). That was the doctrine that guided nuclear proliferation in the world. If EVERYBODY had a nuke it would mean that NOBODY could fuck with ANYBODY ELSE without risking getting a city or two wiped out by a nuke.
That only works if the people involved are sane.
And yes the president of Iran ( inflammatory rhetoric aside ) is NOT crazy enough to use them.Check out the article I posted just before this post. He IS insane enough to use em. Then again, no one thought Hitler was crazy enough to do what he did either. Till it was to late. He knows as well as anybody else that he would be dooming his nation if he used them. Don't credit a leader with complete insanity ( especially considering the fact that he has made NUMEROUS OVERTURES to the US to sit down for talks - Did you ever read his letter to Bush?) Yea, I read his demand that the US turn to Islam or die. What of it? It only shows exactly how crazy he is. Ahmedinejad has been calling for talks CONTINUOUSLY in order to DIFFUSE the tension. The refusal comes from the US because they ahve some crazy notion that they can demand concessions PRIOR to negotiations.
If Iran really wanted to defuse the situation, they would halt there nuclear program, as demanded by the treaty they signed. Why is it a crazy notion, to expect them to full fill there obligations?

How can you say that Ahmedinejad's goal is to bring world war?Do a little reading on the 12th Imam Is that a part of his manifesto?Its his belief that that during ww, that his messiah will appear and make all the world at peace under islam. Or is it an ASSUMPTION?Read it for your self. Listen to the man, this isnt a joke to him. For him to state that WW will follow if the current direction is maintained, is actually a statement of the current situation, WHICH HE HAS STATED HE WANTS TO CHANGE BY ENGAGING IN TALKS. It is NOT a GOAL. To assume that is not only incorrect, it is also a gross prejudice.
He doesnt want to engage in talks, If he did, he would take the demands of the entire world a little more serious.
In typical US propoganda style, the leader of a people is demonized to a ridiculous extent. Let me put some things in perspective:

1) Ahmedinejad is NOT the sole authority in Iran. Iran has a political structure which prevents him from engaging in nuclear war.I know, the supreme leader is the aytolla(sp?) and he agrees with the pres.

2) The desire for nuclear capability is NOT the dream of ONE man. It is a desire expressed by the IRANI PEOPLE. OF COURSE they want a nuke. They too are sick of being bullied by the US.
Well, sorry for them. Under law, which they agreed to, they are not allowed to have nuclear weapons. Whats so hard to understand?
3) The assumption that Ahmedinejad think he would GAIN anything by world war is PURE CONJECTURE. Every single thinking human KNOWS that a world war will DESTROY the world.. there will be nothing left to claim victory over.
Again, listen to the man. He's a wide open book.
4) Iran will NEVER be supported in a nuclear war. It is a FACT that ANY nation initiating a nuclear war will be THE FIRST TO BE WIPED OUT. And no matter how crazy a person is, SELF PRESERVATION definately TOPS THE LIST OF PRIORITIES.
Why wouldnt Russia and China back them/ They cant live without Iran oil. That fact isnt going away anytime soon.
5) There is NO reason to assume that Iran is any less capale of handling nuclear capability.Yes, there is. And they admit that with there signing of the nuclear treaty. This is merely US hubris. Exactly what qualifies the US as being a "safer" country?If you have to ask that, your much further behind than I thought. The US has started more armed conflict on this planet int he past 100 years than any other nation.Yea, and 90% of those conficts were to free people from other imperial nations. It is also the ONLY nation to actually have USED a nuke inwarfare.. yet you assume that Iran is more unsafe? What reason do you have for that other than prejudice? Bro, pick up a news paper for goodness sake.

6) The US has NO BASIS to claim that THEY deserve to have nuclear power whereas other do not. WHo are they to decide.No one says Iran cant have nuclear power. All the US is saying is, if you are going to have nuclear power, you are going to do it under the strict guidlines, of the nuclear treaty.

7) The NPT was a treaty designed BY the nuclear powers FOR the nuclear powers. The consensus is that NOBODY should have nuclear bombs. There is NO CONSENSUS as to whether only the US as certain other selected nations can have nuclear power. In fact i would think that ISRAEL is MORE likely to use their nuke as you claim they are in constant danger of extinction.. But how come nobody goes nuts about that? Oh i forget.. they have US patronage and acceptance that they are "OK" to possess nukes.
No one forced Iran to sign it. Israel didnt sign it.
Listen Preacher i am really not trying to justify violence, NOR am i supporting Ahmedinejad's rhetoric. The point is merely that the problem is more nuanced than you claim, and it certianly requires a LOT more introspection and re-evaltuation of curent tactics to solve. And the trend of condemning a nation/people/person for the failure of these tactics is a copout that does nothing to actually reach a solution.
See, to me, thats the problem. No one wants to see this for what it is. Apeasment just doesnt work.
STEP ONE at this point willbe to ENGAGE Iran in talks. Solutions will follow from that. But nothing will be solved as long as the US expects everybody to do their bidding, and throwing a tantrum when a nation/people/person refuses to do so.
I wouldnt expect any talks between the US and Iran to be fruitfull.

,
Old 03-06-2007, 07:52 PM   #13 (permalink)
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preacherman:

"I wouldnt expect any talks between the US and Iran to be fruitfull. "

Why not? Raygun pulled off getting the hostages out of Iran.
Old 03-06-2007, 09:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
Why not? Raygun pulled off getting the hostages out of Iran.
His name is spelled 'R e a g a n'.
Old 03-06-2007, 09:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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His name is spelled 'R e a g a n'.

And his admin was the last one prior to this one to have a felony conviction.
Old 03-06-2007, 10:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Personally speaking, I just can't help but wonder how different the US's (and the West's) relationship could be today with Iran if the US and Britain hadn't meddled so much in Iran's affairs back in the 1950's and leading up to the 1979 Revolution.

Today's world is paying for the actions taken during the Cold War.
Old 03-07-2007, 04:26 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
preacherman:

"I wouldnt expect any talks between the US and Iran to be fruitfull. "

Why not? Raygun pulled off getting the hostages out of Iran.

Cause all the president of Iran will do is invite us to join Islam (again) or die. This guy seriously believes Islam will soon control the world.
Old 03-07-2007, 04:45 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
Cause all the president of Iran will do is invite us to join Islam (again) or die. This guy seriously believes Islam will soon control the world.
First off you missed the point of my post. Secondly there are plenty of Christians that feel the same about Christianity taking over the world. I suspect with good reason GWB is one of those Christians of that ilk.
Old 03-07-2007, 06:23 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
.Of course there is restriant. Other wise PA wouldnt even exist.
Technically the PA doesn't exist. It has no control over its own area, sea,air and dry ports. It has no control over its borders. it has no control over its economy. It has no control over its sovereignty. the only thing Israel HASN'T done so far is send the palestinians off to concentration camps. They DID however shove them out of their country and force them into refugee camps in neighboring countries ( incidentally why Hezbollah got created.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
That was the choice of the people to support terrorist organisations, leading all the way back to YA.
What YOU term terrorist organizations, are considered by many MANY people to be the only parties ACTUALLY fighting for Palestinian independence and freedom. The "Terrorist" label is purely subjective depending on which "side" you are on. WHATEVER their methods may be, their GOAL is INDEPENDENCE. Fact is that their "terrorism" causes FAR fewer deaths than the Israeli police actions. Now WHY is it that any action taken by Israelis that kill innocent palestinian civilians is termed a "police action". Is it because they wear uniforms? Is it because they have big guns and tanks etc? I mean they kill MORE INNOCENTS than the the palestinians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
The attacks from Israel are a direct responce to terror, carried out on there land.
No the attacks from Israel are a direct response to WAR. The palestinians are fighting for independence with the only means possible. And like i said, just because killing is done IN uniform and from a helicopter it does not make it any less of a terrorist action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
There is one more choice you forgot to mention. They could also Recognize Israel, and help them to disarm terrorist that undermind peace. If that were to happen Israel will give the west bank, and the 2 could live side by side in peace.
Israel has BEEN RECOGNIZED. That is what the Oslo Accord was about. But Israel still refused to let the Palestinians be independent. The Israelis still refused to give up expanding settlements. The Israelis still refused to get out of Palestinian areas. So it seems that recognition is NOT the only prerequisite for peace. IN ADDITION Israel seems to also demand complete control over Palestine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
I never said they should grovel to anyone. Im saying that Israel held out its hand in a move tward peace, Up rooted thousands of its own civilians,and instead of palistine embracing it, they let every terrorist org in the region set up camp to make war with Israel.
I know and i wish Sharon hadn't come down with a stroke. If he had not, things would look very different today. However, Olmert retracted the hand of peace and among other things inaugurated new settlments on the West Bank. ALSO, Gaza was left as a hole int he ground with no access in or out for trade, development or anything. Is it any wonder then that the locals welcomed these organizations with open arms. Whatever they are, these organizations try to ensure that the Palestinians get educated, get medical care and money to eat. The palestinians were not allowing them in because they particularly supported attacks on Israel, but rather because these organizations provided them with those things that Israel made sure they could not get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
When all a country does is support terror, you do the math.
So the US support of Contra terrorists would have been justification for punitive actions? Besides you INSIST on looking at this from a narrow perspective. These organizations are seen as FREEDOM FIGHTERS. No amount of of denunciation by the world will change that opinion. The reality the palestinains see is that these organizations retaliate to Israeli bullying AND give them civic support. Can you give me one reason why a palestinian should not welcome these organizations when the rest of the world seems uninterested in supporting them without preconditions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
Mark Twain visited the land of Palistine a few years before Israel set up camp. He called it the most barren, god forsaken piece of land he's ever seen. There wasnt anyone there.
Umm. yeah.. so the past 65 years was a war over empty land. You know that isn't true at all. Just the fact that an outsider comes in and lays claim on a major city like Jerusalem is EXTREMELY unjust. How would the US feel if Britain got the notion that they wanted New York back (after all it was theirs FIRST)? Would you just hand it over to them for the sake of "peace"? Not a chance in hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
Israel has said its willing to give up alot of land, if Palistine would only recognize them. Without that, why would they stop doing anything.
The palestinians recognized them in the Oslo Accord. Israel gave up nothing and indeed continued the expansion of settlement onto Palestinian land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
See, Iran signed a little thing we like to call the nuclear treaty. The demands the US has put on Iran to come to the table, do not go beyond that. If they didnt mean it, why did they sign it? Iran has put its self in this mess, cause thats exactly what they WANT to happen.
Well just as the US pulled out of the Kyoto Treaty UNILATERALLY because Bush deemed it unfair, so too did Iran about the NPT. The NPT was a treaty developed during the Cold War and was HIGHLY BIASED in favor of those nations that already had nuclear power.

The precedence for pulling out of a treaty has been set for this millenium by the US of A. Imagine the outrageousness of another nation doing as the US does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
Considering the insane amount of terroist plots Israel has stopped, its pretty hard to say it isnt working. BTW in many folks eyes, the only way Israel wont be terrorised anymore, is by no longer existing.
I agree with that. But this opinion is FURTHER STRENGTHENED by Israeli actions. As i said in my earlier post, my disagreement isn't about Israel's right to exist. What i AM saying is that current policy does NOTHING to solve the problem. All it does it put the onus ont he "other party" WITHOUT addressing the issues at hand. Because Israel's actions are the result of government policy and Palestinian action is a rsult of social forces, ISrael is the party in this conflict that has the only realistic chance of CHANGING anything. Mahmoud Abbas rail against the terrorist allt he time. The Palestinian Government CAN NOT stop ANYTHING as long as Israel continues to strenthen support for the "terrorist organizations" by its own actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
Some nations recognise Israel in the ME. But the ones who dont, are aquiring nuclear weapons, and other weapons of MD. What does Israel have to negotiate with Iran about? Israel has nothing to do with Iran. What could they possibly have to talk about? Further more, why should they be expected to talk with people who cant even understand there existance? People who denie the holocaust, while there are still thousands of Jews with numbers written on there hands?
Well that is an academic issue. While i personally think there is no doubt that the holocaust happened, the fact that dissent exists is a FACT. Not just in Iran, but in Europe and America too. In fact i think this is one of the FIRST issues that Ahmedinejad would recant on, seeing as it was an action that happened independent of any "muslim" involvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
Again, the United States is in FULL compliance with the nuclear treaty. If you have no source that says other wise, stop saying other wise.
Sure it is in full compliance when it was one of the nations that WROTE the treaty. It's very practical that the NPT allows the US enough nukes to wipe out the world, but it does not allow other nations to even enrich uranium. It is a one-sided treaty meant to safeguard the nuclear capability of cetain nations, while denying other nations the same right. While the PRINCIPLE is non-proliferation, TRUE non-proliferation would require that NO nation INCLUDING the US owns ANY nukes. This "I can but YOU can't" business is ridiculous
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
That only works if the people involved are sane.
uh-huh.. because Bush is certainly a "sane" guy. He started a WAR that killed more than half a million people, and justified it on UNREAL info AND sought to support it with a couple of grainy sattelite photos. I ask you. Is that the action of a "sane" person? Ahmedinejad's opinions may not sound sane to your ears. But believe me when i say that Bush's opinions certainly don't sound any saner to most non-americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
Check out the article I posted just before this post. He IS insane enough to use em. Then again, no one thought Hitler was crazy enough to do what he did either. Till it was to late.
There is definately a HUGE difference between Hitler and Ahmedinejad. Firstly Iran has yet to annex Poland. Anyhow as far as analogies go, Bush's policies are certainly more remeniscent of Hitler than is Ahmedinejad's. Fine so Bush conceals it beneath an exterior of "democracy" and "freedom", but it doesn't change the fact that the US has a FAR MORE OVERTLY AGGRESSIVE MILITARILY EXPANSIONIST portfolio than Iran.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
,
Yea, I read his demand that the US turn to Islam or die. What of it? It only shows exactly how crazy he is.
Sort of like how Bush stated that one must follow American Capitalist Democracy or die... Isn't that what he meant when he said "you're either with us or against us"? So if Pakistan for instance had had the audacityto remain NEUTRAL in the war on terrorism... well then Bush would have considered them enemies and as such ok to be destroyed.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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If Iran really wanted to defuse the situation, they would halt there nuclear program, as demanded by the treaty they signed. Why is it a crazy notion, to expect them to full fill there obligations?
The point is that they do NOT wish to follow a biased treaty that gives unfair advantage to an OVERT ENEMY. However that does not mean that they do not want to TALK. It is pure lunacy of the US admin to think that any sovereign nation should accept subservience prior to negotiations. That's not how it works. And the sooner the US admin realizes that, the sooner we can get to making PEACE.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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Do a little reading on the 12th Imam . Its his belief that that during ww, that his messiah will appear and make all the world at peace under islam. Read it for your self. Listen to the man, this isnt a joke to him.
Well in that way he is no different from those who believe in armegeddon, the end of days, Rapture, Jesus' Return. As far as i have understood christianity, that is the exac`t same belief held by christians. That armageddon will happen and then jesus will come and defeat all those who oppose him. I would say that Bush as a devout christian probably believes the same no?
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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He doesnt want to engage in talks, If he did, he would take the demands of the entire world a little more serious.
Sort of like how the US took the ENTIRE WORLD seriously when they objected to the IRaq war? Come on man.. don't expect to dictate behavior when you set the precedent yourself.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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I know, the supreme leader is the aytolla(sp?) and he agrees with the pres.
Yes he agrees with the President in terms of not being subservient to the US. It's called the concept of SOVEREIGNTY. However he HAS censured Ahmedinejad for his statements.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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Well, sorry for them. Under law, which they agreed to, they are not allowed to have nuclear weapons. Whats so hard to understand?
Well under a LAW which the US AGREED TO, they are supposed to reduce their carbon emmissions. What's so hard to understand about that? The point is that no parliament is bound by laws enacted by PREVIOUS parliaments. Just as Bush could unilaterally back out of a treaty signed and ratified by the Clinton admin, so to can Ahmedinejad back out of a treaty signed and ratified by his predeccessors.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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Again, listen to the man. He's a wide open book.
Yeah, and like any other book a single sentence only makes complete sense when taken in context of the ENTIRE BOOK.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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Why wouldnt Russia and China back them/ They cant live without Iran oil. That fact isnt going away anytime soon.
RUssia and China will NOT engage in nuclear conflict for the sake of OIL. SURVIVIAL is MORE IMPORTANT than OIL. You know as well as i do that if either china or russia got invovled in a nuke war, the war would not stop until the US, CHina and Russia have wiped each other off the map. NOBODY is gonna allow that.

The FIRST USER OF A NUKE will DEFINATELY get wiped out.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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If you have to ask that, your much further behind than I thought.
Maybe i am. But please give me an answer. WHAT criteria does the US meet that qualifies it as MORE CAPABLE of handling nuclear weapons?
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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The US has started more armed conflict on this planet int he past 100 years than any other nation.Yea, and 90% of those conficts were to free people from other imperial nations. Bro, pick up a news paper for goodness sake.
"Free people from other imperial nations". Dude that is just a load of crap. The US does not give a hoot about Justice OR Democracy (Contras, Noriega and Saudi Arabia case points). What it DOES are about is its power and national intersts. That's fair enough (realpolitik), but it is absolutely abhorrent when realpolitik is hidden behind a garb of altruism. NO NATION does anything for altruistic reason, and that most CERTAINLY includes the US.
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:25 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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No one says Iran cant have nuclear power. All the US is saying is, if you are going to have nuclear power, you are going to do it under the strict guidlines, of the nuclear treaty.
The NPT states that a no country is allowed to develop nukes. That's not a strict guideline. that is a plain DENIAL.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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No one forced Iran to sign it. Israel didnt sign it.
Are you telling me that this is more about adherence to a TREATY than it is about the fact that Iran may have a nuke? If it is just about adhering to a treaty then i understand that nothing can be said to Israel. However if it is about the danger of NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION, then JUST AS MUCH hue and cry should be raised about Israel. Oh but i forget, they are on the US side so they can do as they please.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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See, to me, thats the problem. No one wants to see this for what it is. Apeasment just doesnt work.
Negotiation is not appeasement, compromise is not appeasement. Nobody is asking the US to try to pay off the Iranis. All that is being asked right now is NEGOTIATION. When Iran invades another nation and the world lets it get away with it.. THAT is appeasement. The cries of appeasement is premature.
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Originally Posted by Preacherman View Post
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I wouldnt expect any talks between the US and Iran to be fruitfull.
Well i suppose that's reason enough to NOT TRY IT. Definately reason enough. It's better just to go straight to war. MUUUUCH better.
Love for all, Hatred for none
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