Of the signers of the US Constitution:

26 Episcopalian, 11 Presbyterian, 7 Congregationalist, 2 Lutheran, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodist, 2 Roman Catholic, 2 Quaker and 1 Deist-Dr. Franklin.

Wow I never knew 1 was most.

But what about these quotes by President Washington????


Yet Madison also said:


Yet Thomas Jefferson also said:

And finally From his will:

."


Really, the First Amendment says that Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of religion. The quote talks about recognizing the history of our founding. Well we celebrate our Independence on July 4th, hmmm what other important document contains that date??? Oh that is right the Declaration of Independence, the document that declared our nation independent and separate from England, if you will a new nation. A document that appeals to a Supreme Being 4 times, A Nature's God, Creator, Supreme Judge of the World, and Divine Providence.

[quote=Katczinsky;139600]
It is also a willful ignorance of the real history behind the phrase "in God we trust". The article proclaims that this phrase is a part of our heritage and history, when in actuality the actual phrase 'in God we Trust' really didn't receive gravity until later in our history; especially during the red scare (communists were atheist).

Yet In God We Trust has been on our coin money since the 1860's. Well you are right that it did not become our motto until 1956, it has had a place in our history and tradition since our founding.

dmk

Yet the 'authors' of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence (James Madison of the former, and Thomas Jefferson of the latter) espoused their deism. Most of the key revolutionary and intellectual forces in the forming of this nation, mostly being George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Ethan Allen, James Monroe, and Benjamin Franklin were deist. Most of the former including Hamilton, Lafayette, Hancock, and many others were freemasons, a group that closely identified with deism.

As historian Robert Middlekauff points out; "the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention, and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety."

Even though most of the signers attended church services as you pointed out, the spirit of their ideology in the signing of the Constitution was upon secularism. It is for those reasons that people consider 'most' of the founders to be deist.



The first quote I cannot find a reliable source, and the second quote is merely a prayer and is irrelevant to my point. For this reason I will only concern myself with the third quote:

"The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."
-George Washington, First Inaugural Address

The quote is actually a fragment of a much larger sentence:

"I dwell on this prospect with every satisfaction which an ardent love for my country can inspire, since there is no truth more thoroughly established than that there exists in the economy and course of nature an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness; between duty and advantage; between the genuine maxims of an honest and magnanimous policy and the solid rewards of public prosperity and felicity; since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered, perhaps, as deeply, as finally, staked on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people."

It's clear that Washington is expressing a sentiment common among many of the Constitution's signers. And that sentiment is inalienable rights. He is not necessarily saying that America should bow to God's will, but that America as a nation should never disregard these inalienable rights that are endowed by one's creator or by nature. One of these rights is freedom of religion, as well as including a freedom from religion. This is in no way a declaration of an American Christian ideology, but merely a reiteration of the importance of inalienable rights, or 'eternal rules' ordained by Heaven and/or nature (a statement which applies to anyone who believes in God, not just Christians, but including deists; and of course for those who do not believe: inalienable rights come from 'nature').


I cannot find a reliable source for either quote, and even the unreliable sources do not say to what they are in reference to.

If you are aware of a reliable source, or where these quotes were pulled from (documents?), it would be much appreciated.


"In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God. Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day."
-Avery Cardinal Dulles


Sgt, no one's suggesting Jefferson was an atheist. He believed in God, and he believed in God's natural law. He also believed that any nation should not ignore that law (inalienable rights expressed in his authorship of the Declaration of Independence). But as a deist he also believed that, for the sake of both the church and the state, that they should remain separate, and that America was only founded upon Christian ideology insofar as such inalienable rights are protected. But such inalienable rights are considered 'natural law' by anyone from Christians to atheists.


Reiterating my point above, the Declaration of Independence was written in the spirit of inalienable rights. 'Natural law' being something that would also apply to atheists.

You kind of desperately attempted to connect the first amendment to the word "God". The First Amendment is apart of the Constitution, not the Declaration of Independence. No where in the Constitution, the primary ideology and legal spine of our nation, is "God" mentioned.

No law respecting an establishment of religion is expressing a principle of a separation of church and state, as Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence (which you proudly proclaim contains "God"), recognizes in the quote I provided.


I wasn't aware that our founding took place in the 1860's.

The saying didn't get any real significant traction until the civil war. Almost a century after our founding.

[quote=Katczinsky;144085]
I cannot find a reliable source for either quote, and even the unreliable sources do not say to what they are in reference to.

If you are aware of a reliable source, or where these quotes were pulled from (documents?), it would be much appreciated.


The first quote comes from Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments
and letter dated 20 June 1785. Link

As for the second quote, some say it was uttered by Madison, others say it was made uo, as far as a link, at this time I cannot find one.



Yet Jefferson himself said without recognition of God there would be no rights...this came from his Notes on Virginia. Now I only paraphrased it, however the whole quote is as follows:

"

Yet the Declaration of Independence was the document that the founding of this nation was based upon. It contained inalienable rights granted by the creator. If there is no Creator, then there are no inalienable rights.

No the founding did not occur in 1860, however, the usage of In God We Trust, did, which shows a tradition and history of it use.

Roe V Wade is 34 years old, In God We Trust, is 147 years old. I would say quite a tradition and history of use, would you ot?/

dmk

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments is Madison's arguments against religious intrusion into the state. It is in opposition to a bill that would require tax payer money go to specific religious institutions; that is, "A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion."

Instead of taking a single line, read it and you will better understand Madison's opinion.

Madison rejected this bill and adopted Jefferson's which was a statue of religious freedom, stating that "to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical." The meaning is quite clear; it's more specific than the establishment clause: public monies cannot go toward the propagation of religious ideas. And further:

"Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in nowise [sic] diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities".

In other words; no Christian prayer in public schools. No state court houses with the 10 Commandments.


You're taking this out of context once again. Jefferson isn't saying necessarily saying that without belief in God, one does not have rights. Jefferson is saying that without recognition of the unalienable nature of rights (natural, granted by God, etc.) that such rights may be abused and posisbly withheld from the people.


Again, if you don't believe in a creator it doesn't mean you don't believe in unalienable rights. Jefferson made it quite clear many times that the focus of our patriotic attentions must focus on the unalienable nature of our rights. In fact, it was Madison's and Jefferson's opinion that to recognize an establishment of religion (Christian nation) would to be infringing on those very unalienable rights.


What does Roe V Wade have to do with this?

I would agree that "In God we Trust" has quite a tradition and history; but that is not what we're debating. It was insinuated that the statement has a history and importance in the ideology of the founding of our nation; which is false.