Defending the Truth

mytmouse57 · 05-16-2007, 02:22 PM

I agree with much of what you are saying -- and thanks for clarifying that the studies did take into account a cross-section of parents on both sides -- and not just adoptive on one side.

However, I think this insistance that there's no real differences between the sexes is off-base. Furthermore, science departed quite a long time ago from the once-popular and breifly-held notion that, aside from the plumbing, men and women are essentially the same critters.

Equality does not and should not mean gender homogeny. And most of the truley proud women I've known don't WANT that anyway. They love being women, want to celebrate womanhood (including the honor of motherhood) and want to be respected AS women.

The "feminism" that tried to attain equality by essentially trying to turn women into men failed, and just about everybody realizes that now.

garysher · 05-16-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxian

I certainly do have a lack of parenting experience.

However, I have read a large number of studies comparing children of gay couples to children of straight couples.
>>>>>>>>>>>

Tell us where we can read these "studies". The only ones I have seen used tiny biased samples and are basically worthless

In any case, parenting is mostly an instinctive process and not merely logical, like assembling a gearbox

Further, I have interacted many times with many children of gay couples. You can say, "I've raised a child in an opposite-sex couple, and I can imagine what it might be like for a same-sex couple", but really that's insight you get from raising a child yourself. I've actually seen the results of both sides, and I've studied the results.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

First you deride subjective evidence then you use it!!

Make up your mind!

But even if I had no experience at all with children of gay couples, my logic is perfectly reasonable. You cannot just brush it off by saying, "you're naive." I mean, your entire post is nothing but ad hominem: a logical fallacy.

So how can anyone expect to debate with you if this is your response? I mean, should I continue to expect this? I present a whole bunch of logic, and you simply call me names?

If you want to have a real debate, then go back and explain why you disagree with me first post. Use logic, reasoning, and evidence. If you're just going to call me names, then we shouldn't even bother trying to debate.

The fact remains, my wife and I have raised two children and have been closely involved with many other parents and children.

You have not.

We don't need "studies" to tell us that a same sex couple cannot provide children with both a male and a female perspective.

Just as we don't need a meteorologist to tell us that it's raining

garysher · 05-16-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

I am frequently amazed at how you can't comprehend simple English.
I have REPEATEDLY stated that ALL the research proves that gays are just as capable parents as straights are, and that NONE of the research done by ANYBODY shows any detriment to the child.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Again you try to defy centuries of precedence and the wisdom of Mother Nature with your precious "studies", discretely avoiding any detail about how the studies were conducted and the size of any sample involved!

You also seem to want us to accept that we should abandon all our instinctive and historical evidence in favour of your politically correct "studies", even though you have never raised any children yourself.

So with that noted, how the heck could you possibly think I was talking "last resort"?

Because you and your fellow homosexual activists always pitch adoption by homosexuals as being a better option than leaving a child in an orphanage

In other words your only argument is that adoption by homosexuals is the lesser of two evils

You always ignore what is best for the adopted child.

Apparently you don't care about children at all, you are just trying to score a political point and get angry when we undermine you

Jaxian · 05-16-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Tell us where we can read these "studies". The only ones I have seen used tiny biased samples and are basically worthless

Hmm, well I don't have links to the actual text of the studies, but you can find their names and some information about them at these links:

SSRN-(How) Does The Sexual Orientation Of Parents Matter? by Judith Stacey, Timothy Biblarz
The Gottman Institute - Research- Current Research Projects-

With the names of the studies and some research, you may be able to find more information about these studies. Also, feel free to do some additional research on your own.

Quote:

In any case, parenting is mostly an instinctive process and not merely logical, like assembling a gearbox

I find this claim to be untrue. Parenting is about what we tell our children and how we treat them. Parenting involves feeding children, teaching them, providing for them, and setting an example. These tasks are not instinct; they are choice.

Regardless, why would it matter that parenting is instinct?

Quote:

First you deride subjective evidence then you use it!!

Make up your mind!

Observing-first-hand children raised by both types of couples doesn't prove anything, but it might help point us in the right direction.

On the other hand, having raised a child yourself does not seem to provide any understanding of how same-sex couples raise children.

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

The fact remains, my wife and I have raised two children and have been closely involved with many other parents and children.

You have not.

It is also fact that I am a computer programmer, while you are not. But sometimes facts are irrelevant.

What I mean is: just saying that you've raised children doesn't prove your point. It doesn't even support your point. Explain how your experience led you to this conclusion.

Quote:

We don't need "studies" to tell us that a same sex couple cannot provide children with both a male and a female perspective.

Just as we don't need a meteorologist to tell us that it's raining

Sure, you don't need a meteorologist to tell you that it's raining, because you can look out the window and see raindrops falling. You have direct, observable, measurable evidence.

And you're right: you don't need studies to prove your point. But you do need SOMETHING. You need some reason, some evidence, or some logic to back yourself up. Help me understand your point of view.

foundit66 · 05-16-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Because you and your fellow homosexual activists always pitch adoption by homosexuals as being a better option than leaving a child in an orphanage

1) I could ask if raising the child's real parents back from the dead by Jesus himself, giving the child back to his parents, and giving them a good job and a good home would be better than him being raised in an orphanage...
Would that mean I was talking about "lesser of two evils"?

2) You STILL HAVE NOT answered the question.

I ask AGAIN:

Which is better for a child?
Being adopted by NO parent, or being adopted by a qualified parent?

garysher · 05-16-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxian

Hmm, well I don't have links to the actual text of the studies, but you can find their names and some information about them at these links:

SSRN-(How) Does The Sexual Orientation Of Parents Matter? by Judith Stacey, Timothy Biblarz
The Gottman Institute - Research- Current Research Projects-

With the names of the studies and some research, you may be able to find more information about these studies. Also, feel free to do some additional research on your own.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I already did. I have been a parent for 21 years. That's a lot of research!

I checked out your link but it wont let me download the paper

However, I detect a definite bias even in the overview:

Whereas opponents of lesbian and gay parent rights claim that children with lesbigay parents are at higher risk for a variety of negative outcomes, most research in psychology concludes, somewhat defensively, that there are no differences at all in developmental outcomes between children raised by lesbigay and heterosexual parents.

This paper challenges this defensive conceptual framework and analyzes the ways in which heterosexism has hampered intellectual progress in the field. We discuss limitations in the definitions, samples, and analyses of the studies to date.

Observing-first-hand children raised by both types of couples doesn't prove anything, but it might help point us in the right direction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yeah right!! Let's ignore the views of parents and believe what we want to believe - that seems to be your approach!

On the other hand, having raised a child yourself does not seem to provide any understanding of how same-sex couples raise children.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It makes it abundantly clear just how important it is for a child to have both a mother and a father in their lives

It is also fact that I am a computer programmer, while you are not. But sometimes facts are irrelevant.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If we were discussing programming then it would be entirely relevant and I would happily defer to your superior knowledge in that field

Sure, you don't need a meteorologist to tell you that it's raining, because you can look out the window and see raindrops falling. You have direct, observable, measurable evidence.

And you're right: you don't need studies to prove your point. But you do need SOMETHING. You need some reason, some evidence, or some logic to back yourself up. Help me understand your point of view.

It's very simple

There is a reason why God, or Mother Nature, or whatever you believe in, determined that creating a child requires a man and a woman.

More than ever children need to be raised by a mother and a father in a loving stable environment if they are to have the best start in life

garysher · 05-16-2007, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxian

Hmm, well I don't have links to the actual text of the studies, but you can find their names and some information about them at these links:

SSRN-(How) Does The Sexual Orientation Of Parents Matter? by Judith Stacey, Timothy Biblarz
The Gottman Institute - Research- Current Research Projects-

I just checked out your second study, here are my initial comments:

1. The study involved just 21 gay and 21 lesbian couples, far too small a sample to have and scientific merit whatsoever

2. The findings are all touchy-feely and subjective such as "Gay/lesbian couples are more upbeat in the face of conflict
Gay/lesbian couples use fewer controlling, hostile emotional tactics.Unhappy gay and lesbian couples tend to show low levels of "physiological arousal."

SO what??? It's a lot of subjective bum feeling with no scientific importance3. Where do they answer the question about how a homosexual couple can provide a child with a mother and a father?What else ya got?

garysher · 05-16-2007, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foundit66

1) I could ask if raising the child's real parents back from the dead by Jesus himself, giving the child back to his parents, and giving them a good job and a good home would be better than him being raised in an orphanage...
Would that mean I was talking about "lesser of two evils"?

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Such childish facetiousness on such a serious topic.............

2) You STILL HAVE NOT answered the question.

I ask AGAIN:

Which is better for a child?
Being adopted by NO parent, or being adopted by a qualified parent?

You're still pitching the same "lesser of two evils" argument

The fact is that children deserve to be adopted by a loving mother and father who can provide a stable home

It's as simple as that

vharlow · 05-16-2007, 06:35 PM

I've given a great deal of thought to orphanages lately. I'm not convinced they are bad. I'm certainly not convinced they are worse than lots of parents out there no matter what their sexual identity may be. The entire foster care system seems to fail far too often to be trusted.

Adoptions should not occur without the willing approval and acceptance of the child, and once that is achieved, I don't disapprove.

But I'm not convinced adoption by just anybody would be better than an orphanage.

tristanrobin · 05-16-2007, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vharlow

Adoptions should not occur without the willing approval and acceptance of the child, and once that is achieved, I don't disapprove.

so, adoptive kids should have more rights than biological kids?

or are you suggesting that all kids should be given the legal right to dismiss their parents?

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